The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Good grief, even the title is long! Can I get a comped copy?

Interestingly enough, I'm in the process of writing a book!. The problem is, I can't get more than three pages written!

Well, if he was boring, that would be another story, but he always writes something thought provoking and interesting, so I don't mind the length.

Billy Cole's father said, "Thirty minutes is long enough for a good preacher and too long for a bad one!"

He'll autograph it for ya! LOL! He did mine - "God Bless you as you enjoy His eternal life! Mike Blume, Phil 3:10".

I'm saving it to sell on e-bay when he gets really big. So, write your book, we will buy it and wait to sell yours on e-bay too!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

When I have nothing better to do than watch paint dry, I'll go looking. Like I said, calling me "Passive-Aggressive" IS name-calling and you won't admit that so I'm not very hopeful that you'll make anything else right either. Whatever I produce, you'll just pass off as "joking" so it really won't do any good. If you can't admit the original was serious, there's nothing you'll admit.

The bottom line, however, is that, "The Cross Alone Can Save!"

But when I have some time, I'll look.

Amen. I give you permission to call me a liar, since you insist I lied. But that would be namecalling. And do you not recall me kidding with you in a PM after the fact about passive aggression? Passive aggression is a condition, too, not a name. A name is something like "Pumpkinhead" that Pelathais called me. In fact, ironically enough, Pelathais said I WAS PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE and I never blew a gasket about it. But it is interesting you cannot find any namecalling.



For Pressing-On,

It is wonderful to know that createspace.com is a website where one can order books on demand and get as little as ONE BOOK printed for &.50. So "hello!" for writing more books!

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen. I give you permission to call me a liar, since you insist I lied. But that would be namecalling. And do you not recall me kidding with you in a PM after the fact about passive aggression? Passive aggression is a condition, too, not a name. A name is something like "Pumpkinhead" that Pelathais called me. In fact, ironically enough, Pelathais said I WAS PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE and I never blew a gasket about it. But it is interesting you cannot find any namecalling.

Didn't say I couldn't find any and that was VERY clear. I said I hadn't yet looked. See there how you twist things?? WOW!!!! Nor have I insisted you "lied". However, you said, that I "Fabricated things" and the very definition of "Fabricate" is "To forge, fake, or to lie". So in actuality, you've called ME a liar! So that would be name-calling example #1.

The habit here is, I quote you with copying and pasting, and your habit is answer things I said, that I never said. Great debate strategy. You're not the first one to use it here.

So..."The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save!!!"

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

and still... no answer.

How plainer could I have been?

"As Christian believers, we are only "saved" from one thing: The wrath of God; that is, the rightful punishment for our sinful rebellion. Given the fact that we are only saved from a single amercement, it is cumbersome to think that we need different "acts" (or "works" or whatever) to clear the debt. A single act suffices and that act is the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ."

You sound like "Baghdad Bob," TheLegalist. Denial, self deception... the works.

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

What also is amazing is the scripture clearly teaches when the blood is applied as blood and death are synonymous. Romans 6 says when we are united with him in his death.

Rom 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Was the blood of Jesus Christ shed in the tomb or at the cross? See also Galatians 2:20-21.

T.L. - How do you feel about Mike's hypothetical "Guy Who Dies in the Car on the Way to be Baptized?" Mike asserts that such a man is saved inspite of the fact that he was never water baptized. Would you agree?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The issue of when the blood is applied is a hairy one. It gets into all sorts of confusion, I think. So I do not use it.

For instance, since the blood was applied to the three posts of the Hebrew doors in Goshen during Passover, some say there is a three-fold application to denote repentance, baptism and Spirit infilling. No one stepper would agree with that. I would be called a three stepper, but I do not agree with that correlation either. However, that is the sort of can of worms one opens when one discusses when the blood is applied, when the New Testament does not use that terminology. Since it is not used, then neither sides of the steppers' views are proposed in relation to it.

We do read of BLOOD SHEDDING and BLOOD SPRINKLING. And that is another category altogether, though. Sprinkling of the blood occurs on thy human conscience and depicts a changing process of coming to full assurance of faith in Hebrews 9 - 10, after salvation.

Historically, the debate's primary ramifications were whether or not other Christian groups should be considered as "saved" by the newly formed org in 1945.

The fact that the "Three Stepper" approach has become increasingly dominant is the primary reason the UPC is so often labeled as a "cult." This exclusivistic approach consigns everyone - even the "Guy Who Dies in the Car on the Way to Be Baptized" - to hell. It simply cannot be maintained in the light of Scripture (and I know you don't take it to that extreme, Mike).

Also, the glaring fact that the "Acts 2:38 message" was not preached for at least 1,700 years of the Church Age also puts the more extreme "Three Steppers" in a bit of a bind.

I would not call you a "Three Stepper" Mike, despite the fact that sometimes you do jump into a discussion as if you were one. I see the need for someone who isn't fully wed to an opinion to feel as though they need to clear things up along their lines of thinking. We all do this in one way or the other.

And, your point about the "application" of the blood (Hebrews 9-10) is excellent. "The blood" was NOT shed only on the Day of Atonement in the OT. It was a part of the daily rituals and prayers of Israel. The NT illustration is that Jesus once died for our sins and that this blood from Calvary is still available through faith for the needs of our daily lives today. So in a sense, the blood is really applied continually in the life of the NT believer.

The issue of that older debate, however, might be said to focus upon the question of when is the blood initially applied?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Didn't say I couldn't find any and that was VERY clear. I said I hadn't yet looked. See there how you twist things?? WOW!!!! Nor have I insisted you "lied". However, you said, that I "Fabricated things" and the very definition of "Fabricate" is "To forge, fake, or to lie". So in actuality, you've called ME a liar! So that would be name-calling example #1.

The habit here is, I quote you with copying and pasting, and your habit is answer things I said, that I never said. Great debate strategy. You're not the first one to use it here.

So..."The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save!!!"

You can surely write a lot when the issue is not biblical, but otherwise. lol. Don't tell me you have short attention span.

Anyway, you learned my secret. I never call anyone a liar but I will say whether I think they lied or not. I will never call anyone a name, but will say how I feel they acted. So while I will say you, perhaps unintentionally, fabricated (fabricated is a much nicer term than lied) the idea of me calling you names, I would never call you a liar. But I will say that if you think that me saying you were passive aggressive is name-calling, which I would never say was namecalling (in such a case I would call you a passive aggressor), I apologize for making you feel like I called you a "name". I would not call that a name, but evidently you think it is namecalling.

And I used no strategy of saying you said what you did not say. If I said you claimed something, then I was honest in believing you said it. Again, I did not lie nor do I lie.

Now, can we go on from here yet?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by pelathais

So in a sense, the blood is really applied continually in the life of the NT believer.

That is the very point I once brought out to someone who asked when the blood is applied. Since the blood stands as a microcosm of the work of the cross, then it never ceases to be applied.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You can surely write a lot when the issue is not biblical, but otherwise. lol. Don't tell me you have short attention span.

Anyway, you learned my secret. I never call anyone a liar but I will say whether I think they lied or not. I will never call anyone a name, but will say how I feel they acted. So while I will say you, perhaps unintentionally, fabricated (fabricated is a much nicer term than lied) the idea of me calling you names, I would never call you a liar. But I will say that if you think that me saying you were passive aggressive is name-calling, which I would never say was namecalling (in such a case I would call you a passive aggressor), I apologize for making you feel like I called you a "name". I would not call that a name, but evidently you think it is namecalling.

And I used no strategy of saying you said what you did not say. If I said you claimed something, then I was honest in believing you said it. Again, I did not lie nor do I lie.

Now, can we go on from here yet?

If you'd like to tip-toe through the tulips of honesty, by saying that telling me I lied is not calling me a liar, then enjoy yourself. But I won't be bullied like that and not call you on it. Sorry. I get the impression that very few, if any, people have ever stood up to you.

For me to say, "I don't have time to look up the evidence right now" and then have you proclaim that I was unable to find any evidence, is either a blatant falsehood or an inattention to detail. I'm not fond of either one.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

If you'd like to tip-toe through the tulips of honesty, by saying that telling me I lied is not calling me a liar, then enjoy yourself. But I won't be bullied like that and not call you on it. Sorry. I get the impression that very few, if any, people have ever stood up to you.

For me to say, "I don't have time to look up the evidence right now" and then have you proclaim that I was unable to find any evidence, is either a blatant falsehood or an inattention to detail. I'm not fond of either one.

Bro., say whatever you want. It's a free world. But I stand by all I said. I explained myself. To me, describing what someone did is different than calling them a name. To you it may not be that way. Your choice and mine. But that is honestly how I think of it. So let it stand that I think you lied and you think I lied. And may God bless you!

This is my last post. You can write as much more as you wish. Sorry for my part in wasting people's time in this thread.

Speaking of the cross saving, this thread needs to be saved from this banter.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Bro., say whatever you want. Tally ho, Don Quixote! It's a free world. But I stand by all I said. I explained myself. To me, describing what someone did is different than calling them a name. To you it may not be that way. Your choice and mine. But that is honestly how I think of it. So let it stand that I think you lied and you think I lied. And may God bless you!

This is my last post. You can write as much more as you wish. Sorry for my part in wasting people's time in this thread.

Speaking of the cross saving, this thread needs to be saved from this banter.

That's a pretty good example of your passive/aggressive approach to most of your forum postings Mike. You jump in saying things like,

"None of the One Steppers could ever explain..." and

"They just have no answers for ..." and

"Everyone who doesn't see it my way has no real education and is schtoopid!"

Then, after having turned up the heat to a boiling a temperature, you immediately start to whine whenever someone responds back to you in kind.

"Oh boy! You must really have anger management issues!" exclaims Mike... right after he has scornfully denigrated everyone else.

You're the classic mouthy little kid in the playground. You try and pick a fight wherever you go and when someone stands up to you, you immediately start crying, "Teeeacher!"

Don't dish it out if you can't take it.