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  #1321  
Old 04-29-2010, 11:10 PM
Jeffrey Jeffrey is offline
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

Quote:
Too many repeated PMs with the frenetic nervous laughter.
Is that how you interpreted it? hahahahahahahahahaa

Quote:
You said what I have already characterized you as saying, and then you repeated it. The context of the "sage" remark was concerning my posts in this thread, a thread that you now malign. Yet I have been as frank and "fun" here as I was on thread that about AZ's SB1070.
You've been so fun that Admin got involved and locked the thread.

Quote:
The context of the "jerk" comment was your realization in that thread that I probably don't agree with you about everything and that I have little patience for those who seem to need to post ... frenetically.
Nice try. You really truly believe (all your irrationality aside) I think your a jerk because you don't agree with me?

Last edited by Jeffrey; 04-29-2010 at 11:15 PM.
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  #1322  
Old 04-29-2010, 11:12 PM
Jeffrey Jeffrey is offline
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais View Post

It suddenly occurs to me that I also appear to have dropped in your esteem when you discovered that I was not as wealthy financially as you had for some reason imagined.

"HAHAHAHAHAHAHA" ?
Your last remark... huh?
I could careless if you were a bazillionnaire or living on a shoe string budget.
This whole day has been so unlike you. Are you really Pel? Who has hijacked your screen name?

I am concerned about the implications of the bill and don't think it's a reactive response, not a solution. Sorry we disagree.

Last edited by Jeffrey; 04-29-2010 at 11:14 PM.
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  #1323  
Old 04-29-2010, 11:22 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

Quote:
Originally Posted by notofworks View Post
...but I just know that I got sick of Mike doing his, "You poor people could never understand this like I do" schtick so that's my current warpath! I don't like having my words twisted beyond recognition.
For the record, bro., I did not mean any one was stupid when saying they were not getting any points I made.

Here is where I tried explaining it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume to Pelathais
I was explaining that there is no contradiction if you actually got my point. Neither of us are stupid, bro. It's just that it is sometimes hard to relate viewpoints, and when that occurs the recipient of the explanation thinks contradiction abounds where there actually is none. For some reason you think I am insulting you when I claim you cannot get my point. Notofoworks is touchy that way, too.
...from http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...postcount=1114


Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume to notofworks
And the inability to grasp things was only directed at your A.D.D. that YOU told me about. REGARDS! Doesn't mean you're dumb. Just too impatient.
...from http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...postcount=1271

No one paid attention to that explanation I guess.

If anything, I was simply unclear in my writing. Blame me! But I said, as you can see, more than once that I did not imply you were stupid or dumb.
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  #1324  
Old 04-30-2010, 12:07 AM
Jeffrey Jeffrey is offline
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

Question for TL and Blume (and others) -- do you agree with this excerpt from the Augsburg Confession?

For it is false [I thus conclude, and am certain that it is a fiction,
and not true] that we merit the remission of sins by our works.

False also is this, that men are accounted righteous before God
because of the righteousness of reason [works and external piety].

False also is this that reason, by its own strength, is able to love
God above all things, and to fulfil God's Law, namely, truly to fear
God to be truly confident that God hears prayer, to be willing to
obey God in death and other dispensations of God, not to covet what
belongs to others, etc.
; although reason can work civil works.


Are we capable, by our own will, of even loving God and wanting to obey Him?
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  #1325  
Old 04-30-2010, 12:09 AM
Jeffrey Jeffrey is offline
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

More from Augsburg:

False also and dishonoring Christ is this, that men do not sin who,
without grace, do the commandments of God [who keep the commandments
of God merely in an external manner, without the Spirit and grace in
their hearts].


(Was there already a whole thread about Augsburg?)

My question is to understand how you view man's (perceived) role in salvation.
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  #1326  
Old 04-30-2010, 07:18 AM
TheLegalist TheLegalist is offline
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
More from Augsburg:

False also and dishonoring Christ is this, that men do not sin who,
without grace, do the commandments of God [who keep the commandments
of God merely in an external manner, without the Spirit and grace in
their hearts].


(Was there already a whole thread about Augsburg?)

My question is to understand how you view man's (perceived) role in salvation.
Let me put it to you this way....

God according to scripture and prophecy gives us a heart of flesh so that we will do his commandments.

1) I don't believe in total depravity
2) our works are not the source of justice for our sin. the atonement of christ is.
3) our obedience has a direct affect on our relationship and standing with Christ. We are either true to the purchase price for eternal life or not and we will be judged faithful or wanting.
4) Our obedience is not the source of grace though grace is only given to the humble
5) We cannot receive the promise without obedience and judged "just" to our call and then chosen from those whom are called.
6) It is by the power of his Spirit we become perfect in our work instead of the reasoning and wading the waters of confusion of the mind of how to obey God's law.
7) The Spirit bears witness with our spirit if we are being responsive to him and if not it is unto the flesh and death. God cannot have pleasure or dwell(have relationship) with a heart at enmity with him. This is basic relationship law. The Spirit will still compel to turn but dwelling is a matter of synergistic communion.

Last edited by TheLegalist; 04-30-2010 at 07:22 AM.
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  #1327  
Old 04-30-2010, 07:23 AM
TheLegalist TheLegalist is offline
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

I) God - Lutherans believe in the Triune God and reject other interpretations regarding the nature of God.

uh they can't really explain it either so this is amusing.

II) Original Sin - Lutherans believe that the nature of man is sinful, described as being without fear of God, without trust of God and with concupiscence. The only 'cure' for sin is to be reborn through Baptism and the Holy Spirit.

The first part is contradictive to 18. It's a compromise.

III) The Son of God - Lutherans believe in the incarnation, that is, the union of the fully human with the fully divine in the person of Jesus. Jesus Christ alone brings about the reconciliation of humanity with God.

about time something good is said.

IV) Justification By Faith - Man cannot be justified before God through our own abilities; we are wholly reliant on Jesus Christ for reconciliation with God. (This is often described as the one article by which the "Lutheran church stands or falls".)

own abilities must be defined. does it mean outside of God's request or simply our own initiative. If it is a reference to works of our own initiative I agree but I doubt it.





V) The Office of Preaching Lutherans believe that to see to it that the gospel of Jesus Christ is proclaimed throughout the world, Christ has established his office of the holy ministry.
VI) Of The New Obedience - Lutherans believe that good deeds of Christians are the fruits of faith and salvation, not a price paid for them.

While we are at it let's just throw out Christ's Word that receiving the kingdom of God is like purchasing a field or a great pearl. Also let's ingore basic understanding of contract law and how it works.

VII) Of The Church Lutherans believe that there is one holy Christian Church, and it is found wherever the gospel is preached in its truth and purity and the sacraments are administered according to the gospel.
VIII) What The Church Is Despite what hypocrisy may exist in the church (and among men), the Word and the Sacraments are always valid because they are instituted by Christ, no matter what the sins may be of the man who administers them.
IX) Of Baptism Lutherans believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God. Children are baptized as an offering to them of God's grace.

1/2 right

X) Of the Lord's Supper Lutherans believe that Christ's body and blood is truly present in with and under the bread and wine of the sacrament, and reject those that teach otherwise.
XI) Of Confession Lutherans believe that private absolution should remain in the church, though a believer does not need to enumerate all of his sins as it is impossible for a man to enumerate all of the sins for which he should be forgiven.
XII) Of Repentance Repentance comes in two parts: in contrition for sins committed according to the Law and through faith offered through the Gospel. A believer can never be free from sin, nor live outside of the grace of God.
XIII) Of the Use of the Sacraments The Sacraments (Baptism and the Eucharist) are physical manifestations of God's Word and his commitment to us. The sacraments are never just physical elements, but have God's word and promises bound to them.
XIV) Of Ecclesiastical Order Lutherans only allow those who are "rightly called" to administer the Sacraments.
XV) Of Ecclesiastical Usages Lutherans believe that church holidays, calendars and festivals are useful for religious observance, but that observance and ritual is not necessary for salvation. Human traditions (such as observances, fasts, distinctions in eating meats) that are taught as a way to "merit" grace work in opposition to the Gospel.
XVI) Of Civil Affairs Secular governments and vocations are considered to be part of God's natural orders; Christians are free to serve in government, the military and engage in the business and vocations of the world. Laws are to be followed unless they are commandments to sin.
XVII) Of Christ's Return to Judgment Lutherans believe that Christ will return to judge the world and all men; the 'godly' will be given everlasting joy, the 'ungodly' will be condemned. This article rejects notions of the earthly kingdom of the godly, or that Christ's judgment will not be final.
XVIII) Of Free Will Lutherans believe that we have free will in the realm of "civil righteousness" (or "things subject to reason"), but that we do not have free will in "spiritual righteousness". In other words, we are free to choose and act in every regard except for the choice of salvation. Faith is not the work of men, but of the Holy Spirit.

This is totaly ignorant and stupid while being contradictive.

XIX) Of the Cause of Sin God does not cause people to sin — sin is instead the work of the 'ungodly and the devil'. (i.e. our selfish concerns of this world)
XX) Of Good Works The Lutheran notion of justification by faith does not somehow condemn good works; our faith causes us to good works as a sign of our justification (or salvation), not a requirement for salvation.

This clearly ignores the whole of scripture and that works are the very essence of judgment of what "faithfulness" is. This also fails as it makes salvation ONLY a single realized point in time vs a whole view of a promise to be realized by judgment in the end. Typical failure of understanding Abraham and WAY over reaching what Gen 15:6 is about. Promises and covenants mean rights to obtain. Abraham had conditions, Jesus gave conditions and faithfulness is always the judge of obtaining the promise BY THE CONDITIONS of the contract!

XXI) Of the Worship of the Saints Lutherans keep the saints, not as saviors or intercessors to God, but rather as examples and inspirations to our own faith and life.

Last edited by TheLegalist; 04-30-2010 at 07:48 AM.
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  #1328  
Old 04-30-2010, 07:33 AM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

Lutherans are like Calvinists. They believe in predestination and election the way Calvinists do, in my assessment. Correct me if I am wrong.
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  #1329  
Old 04-30-2010, 07:47 AM
TheLegalist TheLegalist is offline
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Lutherans are like Calvinists. They believe in predestination and election the way Calvinists do, in my assessment. Correct me if I am wrong.
pretty close in many areas...

The problem is Luther was all over the map in his life. So whic Luthers belief are you talking about. LOL! Lutherans have a very wide set of beliefs. Some are antinomians and some are charged as legalists by the other side. LOL! Oh wait I thought htat only happened in the UPC.
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  #1330  
Old 04-30-2010, 08:08 AM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

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Originally Posted by TheLegalist View Post
pretty close in many areas...

The problem is Luther was all over the map in his life. So whic Luthers belief are you talking about. LOL! Lutherans have a very wide set of beliefs. Some are antinomians and some are charged as legalists by the other side. LOL! Oh wait I thought htat only happened in the UPC.
I was amazed at the list you provided of all the Lutheran branches! WOW! It is quite similar to the UPC in some ways, isn't it.
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