What is your opinion? Do you think this is Bible?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

Absolutely, YES! I do and I have! And I don't have to compromise who I am or what I believe. I am simply tolerant and respectful of where they are right now. Might just be God's will that I'm in their life......and vice versa.

Also, I teach very little about the end times. In fact, I'm finishing up a 3 week series on the end times tomorrow, which is the first time I've done it since '04. I major on godly living NOW, not on what may or may not happen according to someone's end time "clock." IMO, it's majoring on the minors. The most important thing is living for Him and being ready for His coming; not being able to score an "A" in eschatology.

Actually, I don't have any confusion about the end times in the church I pastor. I try to put things into perspective and major on the Christ-like life. With Jesus in the center, the rest of the issues aren't "fought" about. Discussed? Yes. Fought over? No.

Whats wrong with preaching godly living now and doing so with a view toward his second coming? I preach both. Jesus certainly did not think his words were "majoring on minors". All his words are more important than all of anyone elses.

I dont enjoy "fighting over" issues myself. Thats why I cannot in good conscience commit to a group that I believe is teaching error. I would always be a thorn in their side. Either that or I would have to just be silent and pretend the words of Jesus are "minors".

[deadeye]

Originally Posted by Trouvere

I was reading the thread earlier about public rebuke and wondered what everyone would think about this scenario.

There is a couple who had questions concerning endtimes. They asked their pastor over to discuss it. They showed him Bible and asked what he felt was the answer. He held an entirely different opinion than theirs. He felt the rapture was pre-trib.
He then told them not to come back to his church because he was not able to be their pastor. They were very faithful members in giving and church work.
The husband was even the Sunday School Superintendant.
They were in no way strifeful.

This couple went the following Sunday to another church of the same Pentecostal denomination. The former pastor found out and called the new
pastor. He told him in no way to accept this couple into his church and said
many disparaging things. Other area pastors got the same phone call.

Thus this couple stayed out of church services for a whole year.

Finally one pastor who was of the same pentecostal denomination called them and invited them to service. He took them in and allowed them to work for Jesus in small areas later trusting them in other areas.

The former pastor found out about it. He stood behind the pulpit and told the whole church family that if they even visited this church that fellowshipped this family that they were never to return to his assembly. They were to shun them and all the church members. Even members of their family....children etc who attended the church were warned.

It gets better. An unsuspecting couple starts going to the new church they attend and become friends. They meet together to discuss Bible every Sunday afternoon indepth.

The pastor old pastor finds out and then announces the name of the new couple they are friends with and says that if anyone fellowships them as well they are not to come back to his church.


Have I been in the dark for a long time or does this go on in many churches
and pentecostal denominations?


What a hinderance to the Gospel this is. When will people grow up and do something for Jesus. It seems so much like Junior High. No wonder people are lost and going to hell. The focus is all about total compliance. So what if people have Bible questions.We ought to all be digging deep into the word.

I want this to be a lesson to me the next time I pastor that people who really study are to be encouraged and they don't have to line up with my every train of thought. Jesus is the judge. If its not a salvational issue and
even if they are researching salvational issues deeper then its a good thing.
Its better than sitting brain dead on a pew putting in their tithes and offerings each week like pentecostal clones. I can't see that in the New Testament Church. I remember an elder quoting it was better to cool down
a fanatic than to warm the dead!

And of course we are hearing only one side of the story here.....the pastor might be an ogre like he is being portrayed here or the reality might be that there is a whole lot more to the story than someone asking some simple questions.

I have seen folks who were "innocently" asking questions and having friendly Bible studies in their home...go on to split the church and wreak havoc amongst the saints....

As I said the pastor might be bad...this happens, but on the other hand he might be totally justified in doing what he did.
I have noticed that folks telling their story are alway pure as the driven snow while the others are spawn of satan.

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by deadeye

And of course we are hearing only one side of the story here.....the pastor might be an ogre like he is being portrayed here or the reality might be that there is a whole lot more to the story than someone asking some simple questions.

I have seen folks who were "innocently" asking questions and having friendly Bible studies in their home...go on to split the church and wreak havoc amongst the saints....

As I said the pastor might be bad...this happens, but on the other hand he might be totally justified in doing what he did.
I have noticed that folks telling their story are alway pure as the driven snow while the others are spawn of satan.

Please clarify. Was the pastor justified in telling the couple he couldn't pastor them and they'd have to go somewhere else? Or was it that he was justified for calling the other pastor and saying disparaging things about the couple? Or maybe it was for telling others that they couldn't return to church if they visited the other church or fellowshipped these people or for being angry with a couple that didn't know the history of the situation?

Whether the couple was right or wrong in their intentions, these actions were NOT justified. Even if the couple's intent was to split the church... do we truly believe that God can heal cancer but lack faith that God will intervene in a divisive situation in HIS church? Do we truly believe He can heal our bodies, but not His own? Or is it better to divide two entire churches than to allow the slightest possibility that someone might convince someone to disagree with us?

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Whats wrong with preaching godly living now and doing so with a view toward his second coming? I preach both. Jesus certainly did not think his words were "majoring on minors". All his words are more important than all of anyone elses.

I dont enjoy "fighting over" issues myself. Thats why I cannot in good conscience commit to a group that I believe is teaching error. I would always be a thorn in their side. Either that or I would have to just be silent and pretend the words of Jesus are "minors".

That IS what I do. I preach the 2nd coming and I preach that it is close at hand. How close? Seems very close to me. But folks have been saying that for a LONG time. That doesn't bother me. If you were to ask the folks @NLC whether we were pre-post, or "a" mill, or pre-mid or post trib, they would scratch their head and say, "What?" If you ask them if NLC preaches the second coming, they would resound with a "YES!" Who really cares which of those views it is? I certainly don't! Those views are NOT important. Jesus told us the general "sign" of the end times. That is good enough for me.

Sorry I'm not good enough for you. You have made my point well.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

That IS what I do. I preach the 2nd coming and I preach that it is close at hand. How close? Seems very close to me. But folks have been saying that for a LONG time. That doesn't bother me. If you were to ask the folks @NLC whether we were pre-post, or "a" mill, or pre-mid or post trib, they would scratch their head and say, "What?" If you ask them if NLC preaches the second coming, they would resound with a "YES!" Who really cares which of those views it is? I certainly don't! Those views are NOT important. Jesus told us the general "sign" of the end times. That is good enough for me.

Sorry I'm not good enough for you. You have made my point well.

Not important? To you perhaps but to the Holy Spirit he was not wasting words when he inspired:

2 Thess. 2:1-5

1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Yet you can say "Who really cares? Wow!

[deadeye]

Originally Posted by missourimary

Please clarify. Was the pastor justified in telling the couple he couldn't pastor them and they'd have to go somewhere else? Or was it that he was justified for calling the other pastor and saying disparaging things about the couple? Or maybe it was for telling others that they couldn't return to church if they visited the other church or fellowshipped these people or for being angry with a couple that didn't know the history of the situation?

Whether the couple was right or wrong in their intentions, these actions were NOT justified. Even if the couple's intent was to split the church... do we truly believe that God can heal cancer but lack faith that God will intervene in a divisive situation in HIS church? Do we truly believe He can heal our bodies, but not His own? Or is it better to divide two entire churches than to allow the slightest possibility that someone might convince someone to disagree with us?

If the pastor did all the things he was accused of there would be reason to be upset with what he did...however we are still only hearing one side of the story....it may not even be remotely like they are telling it.

I have had folks tell the biggest lies about me and others simply because it justified their wicked behavior.

Also although very seldom (once or twice) in my ministry there have been folks I simply had to send down the road and if they had attended any other church (Apostolic) I would have been duty bound to inform the pastor that they were wolves in sheeps clothing...AND tell the saints of my church they need to stay away from them.

There are certain folks that are simply evil...and can fool most every one into thinking they are just fine folks.

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by deadeye

If the pastor did all the things he was accused of there would be reason to be upset with what he did...however we are still only hearing one side of the story....it may not even be remotely like they are telling it.

I have had folks tell the biggest lies about me and others simply because it justified their wicked behavior.

Also although very seldom (once or twice) in my ministry there have been folks I simply had to send down the road and if they had attended any other church (Apostolic) I would have been duty bound to inform the pastor that they were wolves in sheeps clothing...AND tell the saints of my church they need to stay away from them.

There are certain folks that are simply evil...and can fool most every one into thinking they are just fine folks.

Is it not possible that the kind of people you are talking about could be changed by the grace and mercy of God and actually become good, upstanding saints? Or that you might have been mistaken?

[deadeye]

Originally Posted by missourimary

Is it not possible that the kind of people you are talking about could be changed by the grace and mercy of God and actually become good, upstanding saints? Or that you might have been mistaken?

Of course it is possible...i have seen it happen...there are key folks in my church that at one time helped split this church....but they came beck and became some of the best folks you will ever find...dont know what I would do without them.

But it doesn't take away from the fact that THEN they were busy destroying...and I mean destroying the church...it is just the grace of God the church here stands today.
And at that time something drastic needed to be done.

If someone becomes an enemy of Gods church, they cannot be allowed to wreak havoc...and it is the pastors responsibility to take action...and then God will do what He can to restore them.

[missourimary]

I 'd personally prefer to let God take action when He thinks it's necessary, since it is His church.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Not important? To you perhaps but to the Holy Spirit he was not wasting words when he inspired:

2 Thess. 2:1-5

1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Yet you can say "Who really cares? Wow!

I preach this. In fact, I just preached it for 3 weeks and finished up a series on the end times. I believe pre-trib is correct. However, I also teach that we could be wrong on the timing and that the most important thing is to be ready. Just because I don't preach it like you do, you call that deception. Once again, you make my point. Straining at a gnat! IMO