For those that left the UPC...

[On The Wheel]

Originally Posted by Sam

My wife compares the UPC to a Mafia family.
Once in, you're pretty well stuck
and if you try to leave, they'll put out a hit on you

I have observed those who have tried to leave despite the presence of extensive familial and ministerial ties that go back decades. It always brings to mind a popular destination the Eagles sung about in years gone by, The Hotel California.

"You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave!"

Just my humble observation.

Consider me checked out!

[On The Wheel]

Originally Posted by Sam

"Hier stehe ich" ("Here I stand"), a statement attributed to Martin Luther

The enforcement of the ban on the 95 Theses fell to the secular authorities. On 18 April 1521, Luther appeared as ordered before the Diet of Worms. This was a general assembly of the estates of the Holy Roman Empire that took place in Worms, a town on the Rhine. It was conducted from 28 January to 25 May 1521, with Emperor Charles V presiding. Prince Frederick III, Elector of Saxony, obtained a safe conduct for Luther to and from the meeting.

Johann Eck, speaking on behalf of the Empire as assistant of the Archbishop of Trier, presented Luther with copies of his writings laid out on a table and asked him if the books were his, and whether he stood by their contents. Luther confirmed he was their author, but requested time to think about the answer to the second question. He prayed, consulted friends, and gave his response the next day:

Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. May God help me. Amen.

Luther is sometimes also quoted as saying: "Here I stand. I can do no other". Recent scholars consider the evidence for these words to be unreliable, since they were inserted before "May God help me" only in later versions of the speech and not recorded in witness accounts of the proceedings.

Over the next five days, private conferences were held to determine Luther's fate. The Emperor presented the final draft of the Diet of Worms on 25 May 1521, declaring Luther an outlaw, banning his literature, and requiring his arrest: "We want him to be apprehended and punished as a notorious heretic." It also made it a crime for anyone in Germany to give Luther food or shelter. It permitted anyone to kill Luther without legal consequence.

To quote others, he should have stuck with the old paths. Who was this unknown, nondescript little monk to challenge the positions of his forefathers?

And to quote scripture in the face of long held church traditions? What was he thinking?

[On The Wheel]

Originally Posted by noeticknight

Such honesty! I recall a conversation with some on this forum who took the stand that former Pentecostals ("backsliders") were completely to blame for their own spiritual stumbling and demise because ultimately, it boils down to choice. Perhaps that is so, but a quote comes to mind..."If gold rusts, what shall iron do."

In reality, what some may judge to be a spiritual death, may actually be rebirth. It is true that we do have the power of choice. The only regret I carry is that I didn't break away sooner.

Each must work out his own, but I sincerely believe that the Lord honors and blesses the honest heart. May God bless.

More and more I am feeling as you. My reservations involve my fellowship and that of my family upon leaving. And, of course, the many years of ministry invested in the UPCI.

[Mirth1981]

Originally Posted by Sam

My wife compares the UPC to a Mafia family.
Once in, you're pretty well stuck
and if you try to leave, they'll put out a hit on you

Thanks for the laugh....that comment hit my funny bone for some reason.

So close to the truth though...

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

There are ministers in the UPC now who are confronting the unsupported stands and are doing it within the confines of the UPC to promote change.

I spent 10 years talking and trying to changed things from the inside out when licensed with UPC. In the Pacific Northwest we were pretty well split with conservitive and middle of the roaders. When I let my license go back rumours ran amuck about me from being backslid to commiting adultary. When all I did was quit going to sectional meetings and through myself into my family and the church that I was an assosiate minister with. As the pastor undrstood where I was comming from and I continued to be used in ministry in the church.

I had a insident with the pastor I grew up under which caused me to leave his church. We then attended a church 40 miles from us when he preached one Sunday morning against facial hair with a first time visiter in attendance that had a beard. That was the last time we went there. The point I would have lost my children had I forced them to tow the mark according to the unreal teachings of these pastors. I am happy to say all four of my children and thier spouses have a love for God and are raising our grandchildren to love God the same.

So Im sorry to say if there is any way to leave, leave, but do so with a right spirit and a place to go. We almost all need fellowship to stay strong and grow.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I spent 10 years talking and trying to changed things from the inside out when licensed with UPC. In the Pacific Northwest we were pretty well split with conservitive and middle of the roaders. When I let my license go back rumours ran amuck about me from being backslid to commiting adultary. When all I did was quit going to sectional meetings and through myself into my family and the church that I was an assosiate minister with. As the pastor undrstood where I was comming from and I continued to be used in ministry in the church.

I had a insident with the pastor I grew up under which caused me to leave his church. We then attended a church 40 miles from us when he preached one Sunday morning against facial hair with a first time visiter in attendance that had a beard. That was the last time we went there. The point I would have lost my children had I forced them to tow the mark according to the unreal teachings of these pastors. I am happy to say all four of my children and thier spouses have a love for God and are raising our grandchildren to love God the same.

So Im sorry to say if there is any way to leave, leave, but do so with a right spirit and a place to go. We almost all need fellowship to stay strong and grow.

What kind of church you go to now?

[*AQuietPlace*]

Read this today, thought of this thread:



"The mind is a very powerful thing. As one writer put it (I think Jonathan Edwards), “The heart will not accept what the mind rejects.” Of course this does not happen overnight for most. It comes with questions, concerns, and small doubts here and there. As children we have the tendency to believe what we are told. Whether it be Santa Clause, storks and babies, the tooth fairy, or God, children are very trusting. It is not until we become adults that we go through a time of critical analysis, but even then, our tendency is to root for the “home team.” In other words, we want mom and dad to be right, therefore, we attempt to see things through the lenses we were given. When something challenges our childhood assumptions, our emotions fight to keep us at the bays with which we are familiar. However, our emotions only have so much vitality and traditions become nuanced and redirected slowly. Sooner or later, adjustments begin to be made and we find ourselves in an intellectual crisis of faith. This is natural and this is good. However, many Christians are completely unprepared for this crisis and it eventually does great damage, even to the point of sinking their ship."


From Parchment and Pen blog, by C. Michael Patton.


more:

"Many people have their understanding of the Christian faith built in such a way. For so many Christians, their theology is a house of cards. Doubt, in any area, is like tampering with one card. If something happens to this card, all is lost. Therefore, doubt, in any area, is an incredibly fearful thing.

However, when it comes to Christianity, intellectual doubt is nothing to fear. It is the other side of the coin to intellectual growth. As long as we don’t see our faith as a house of cards, we can begin to rearrange, question, doubt, wrestle with, and engage issues with much more confidence. I often tell people that I have less faith in the reality of one’s faith when they say they have never had any intellectual doubts at all. I will distinguish this from what I call “spiritual doubt” in the next chapter of this series, but what we must realize is that any type of true intellectual engagement—any time we seek to love God with our minds—this requires an assumption of some doubt. Think about it. If you approach your studies simply seeking to confirm what you already believe, you are not studying at all. Your mind is absent as your heart’s ambition is to take your prejudice and have it affirmed. However, when you are pursuing truth first, you begin to release yourself of obligations to serve what you already know. Otherwise, you are your own master, not truth, and certainly not God."




His post is concerning intellectual doubt, and how that can be a good thing, and I thought these particular quotes were especially relevant to our discussion here.




"There are some incredible, balanced, and well-respected scholars in Christianity. There are thousands of books, lectures, and even full courses of study that are broadly available. Make sure that you are committed to studying these issues. Bring your doubts and concerns to the table and I am certain that you will be presented with answers that are intellectually satisfying concerning the central issues of the Christian faith."

"Intellectually, when we come of age, Christians should intellectually challenge all their beliefs. God is certainly not afraid of questions and doubts. And it is not sin. In fact, this is the bullseye of obedience. “The way of the fool is right in his own eyes.” The diligent Christian searches all things to “find out whether these things are so.” The Christian faith is intellectually sustainable. There are answers to the questions and doubts we have. Whether or not we can accept these answers is another issue all together."

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I spent 10 years talking and trying to changed things from the inside out when licensed with UPC. In the Pacific Northwest we were pretty well split with conservitive and middle of the roaders. When I let my license go back rumours ran amuck about me from being backslid to commiting adultary. When all I did was quit going to sectional meetings and through myself into my family and the church that I was an assosiate minister with. As the pastor undrstood where I was comming from and I continued to be used in ministry in the church.

I had a insident with the pastor I grew up under which caused me to leave his church. We then attended a church 40 miles from us when he preached one Sunday morning against facial hair with a first time visiter in attendance that had a beard. That was the last time we went there. The point I would have lost my children had I forced them to tow the mark according to the unreal teachings of these pastors. I am happy to say all four of my children and thier spouses have a love for God and are raising our grandchildren to love God the same.

So Im sorry to say if there is any way to leave, leave, but do so with a right spirit and a place to go. We almost all need fellowship to stay strong and grow.

I honestly don't care if someone is in the UPC or not. I just think all things should be done prayerfully. Good advice about leaving with a right spirit and a place to go.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sam

My wife compares the UPC to a Mafia family.
Once in, you're pretty well stuck
and if you try to leave, they'll put out a hit on you

Ever notice the FAMILY aspect of the Higher-ups in the UPC. All related. May have changed now since Bro Bernard is GS.

[On The Wheel]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Read this today, thought of this thread:





"Many people have their understanding of the Christian faith built in such a way. For so many Christians, their theology is a house of cards. Doubt, in any area, is like tampering with one card. If something happens to this card, all is lost. Therefore, doubt, in any area, is an incredibly fearful thing.

However, when it comes to Christianity, intellectual doubt is nothing to fear. It is the other side of the coin to intellectual growth. As long as we don’t see our faith as a house of cards, we can begin to rearrange, question, doubt, wrestle with, and engage issues with much more confidence. I often tell people that I have less faith in the reality of one’s faith when they say they have never had any intellectual doubts at all. I will distinguish this from what I call “spiritual doubt” in the next chapter of this series, but what we must realize is that any type of true intellectual engagement—any time we seek to love God with our minds—this requires an assumption of some doubt. Think about it. If you approach your studies simply seeking to confirm what you already believe, you are not studying at all. Your mind is absent as your heart’s ambition is to take your prejudice and have it affirmed. However, when you are pursuing truth first, you begin to release yourself of obligations to serve what you already know. Otherwise, you are your own master, not truth, and certainly not God."

Thanks for posting this great quote. I've often observed the trepidation many UC preachers display when people begin to ask questions about certain doctrines. I knew of a preacher who asked his pastor for scriptural justification for the taboo on beards and was thrown out. This seems harsh until you begin to see this position as one card in many. If this gets pulled out, many more will follow, because this position is based purely upon tradition rather than a sound stand on scripture.

The "do it because we said so" traditional foundation for so many UC stands must be maintained at all costs. Some pastors jealously protect their right to rule by fiat, and will justify the destruction of the few to allow them to govern the many.