What does this statement mean for ex-Upcers?

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I read this on another thread and although the author wasn't the first one to make this statement, I've always wondered what can be meant by this?

I'm not picking on the original author of this statement, either. I've just heard it one to many times and wanted others comments on the context. Why leave when you say you miss all of this?

You miss:

• The fellowship
• The Worship
• The Preaching
• The Passion
• The sold-outness

But, none of that was good enough to stay?

I just don't get it. That' the only reason I stay. People are generally a pain in the tail feathers for the most part - I mean even at the Post Office. I don't see how leaving helps.

For me I miss many of my friends and family that I no longer have much in common with. I don't miss the preaching and worship as I really have doctrinal problems with them. As for the 'passion' and 'sold-outness', for the most part(not all) the people of my generation that I'm aware of in the local UPC are hypocritical and self-deceiving.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

As for the 'passion' and 'sold-outness', for the most part(not all) the people of my generation that I'm aware of in the local UPC are hypocritical and self-deceiving.

Pretty strong ... don't you think????

[CC1]

I have addressed this in the past.

I have said that I believe if you take the same size PCI exUPC type church and a UPC church the UPC church will have a greater number of sold out, dedicated people in it.

That is very natural since the bar is so high to become a part of a UPC congregation. You must conform to all of the legalism, rules, restrictions, etc.

exUPC /PCI type churches have a much different approach to church and discipling people. People are accepted and are part of the church regardless of what point they are at in their walk with God. There are many opportunities for discipleship and many avail themselves of them while some others may not even for extended periods of time. Most of these churches have minimums of classes one must take before operating in a leadership role (choir, teaching,etc).

Is he "ferver" and "dedication" of a church of 1,000 UPCer's greater than that of the same size exUPC PCI type church, you bet!! Would I trade my church for that, NO!!!

Because the ends do not justify the means. I realize that my church is made up of a lot of people at a lot of different places in their journey with Christ.

It is also made up of a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds. Some are more comfortable with demonstrative worship than others.

I for one don't believe that most of the demonstrative worship in old time Pentecost is neccessary or even beneficial. In my opinion most of it is tradition, emotion, etc.

I have seen as many lives truly changed at my church that some consider "dead" as I saw in old time Pentecost with all of the whoopin and hollarin going on.

You can shout your hair down and spin the helicopter till you drop and still be a devil. I have witnessed it first hand. Having a crowd scream "amen" every two seconds and waving their arms around may make the preacher feel better but I don't think that is what God is really looking for. A person can be just as serious and sincere with God without the theatrics.

Bottom line is that I would rather go to a church of 4,000 that is embracing people at all stages of a walk with Christ than a church of 1,000 sold out people bound to their religous culture through forced legalism and psychological conditioning.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by CC1

I have addressed this in the past.

I have said that I believe if you take the same size PCI exUPC type church and a UPC church the UPC church will have a greater number of sold out, dedicated people in it.

That is very natural since the bar is so high to become a part of a UPC congregation. You must conform to all of the legalism, rules, restrictions, etc.

exUPC /PCI type churches have a much different approach to church and discipling people. People are accepted and are part of the church regardless of what point they are at in their walk with God. There are many opportunities for discipleship and many avail themselves of them while some others may not even for extended periods of time. Most of these churches have minimums of classes one must take before operating in a leadership role (choir, teaching,etc).

Is he "ferver" and "dedication" of a church of 1,000 UPCer's greater than that of the same size exUPC PCI type church, you bet!! Would I trade my church for that, NO!!!

Because the ends do not justify the means. I realize that my church is made up of a lot of people at a lot of different places in their journey with Christ.

It is also made up of a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds. Some are more comfortable with demonstrative worship than others.

I for one don't believe that most of the demonstrative worship in old time Pentecost is neccessary or even beneficial. In my opinion most of it is tradition, emotion, etc.

I have seen as many lives truly changed at my church that some consider "dead" as I saw in old time Pentecost with all of the whoopin and hollarin going on.

You can shout your hair down and spin the helicopter till you drop and still be a devil. I have witnessed it first hand. Having a crowd scream "amen" every two seconds and waving their arms around may make the preacher feel better but I don't think that is what God is really looking for. A person can be just as serious and sincere with God without the theatrics.

Bottom line is that I would rather go to a church of 4,000 that is embracing people at all stages of a walk with Christ than a church of 1,000 sold out people bound to their religous culture through forced legalism and psychological conditioning.

You're just COLD ... CC1.

[Tech]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

You miss:[/B]

• The fellowship
• The Worship
• The Preaching
• The Passion
• The sold-outness

I find all these things in the church i attend.UPC does not have a lock on these things.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Tech

I find all these things in the church i attend.UPC does not have a lock on these things.

We have a winner.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by CC1

I have addressed this in the past.

I have said that I believe if you take the same size PCI exUPC type church and a UPC church the UPC church will have a greater number of sold out, dedicated people in it.

That is very natural since the bar is so high to become a part of a UPC congregation. You must conform to all of the legalism, rules, restrictions, etc.

exUPC /PCI type churches have a much different approach to church and discipling people. People are accepted and are part of the church regardless of what point they are at in their walk with God. There are many opportunities for discipleship and many avail themselves of them while some others may not even for extended periods of time. Most of these churches have minimums of classes one must take before operating in a leadership role (choir, teaching,etc).

Is he "ferver" and "dedication" of a church of 1,000 UPCer's greater than that of the same size exUPC PCI type church, you bet!! Would I trade my church for that, NO!!!

Because the ends do not justify the means. I realize that my church is made up of a lot of people at a lot of different places in their journey with Christ.

It is also made up of a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds. Some are more comfortable with demonstrative worship than others.

I for one don't believe that most of the demonstrative worship in old time Pentecost is neccessary or even beneficial. In my opinion most of it is tradition, emotion, etc.

I have seen as many lives truly changed at my church that some consider "dead" as I saw in old time Pentecost with all of the whoopin and hollarin going on.

You can shout your hair down and spin the helicopter till you drop and still be a devil. I have witnessed it first hand. Having a crowd scream "amen" every two seconds and waving their arms around may make the preacher feel better but I don't think that is what God is really looking for. A person can be just as serious and sincere with God without the theatrics.

Bottom line is that I would rather go to a church of 4,000 that is embracing people at all stages of a walk with Christ than a church of 1,000 sold out people bound to their religous culture through forced legalism and psychological conditioning.

Do you really believe the majority of UPC churches engage in psychological conditioning?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Do you really believe the majority of UPC churches engage in psychological conditioning?

You didn't ask me ... but yes ... a majority do.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Do you really believe the majority of UPC churches engage in psychological conditioning?

Yes. Not in an evil malicious way. It is just part and parcel of the culture.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Pretty strong ... don't you think????

Not really. Most have no idea why they do what they do and it's a game at best and fire insurance at worst.