For those that left the UPC...

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by geekette

Yes. May 15, 1977. One of my friends, Liz, was praying through, and I was praying with her and the attention turned to me and I began to speak in tongues.

Being honest, I can't say that I have a testimony of it today, but it had a huge impact on my life.

If you had been in a church that was truly grace-based, do you think your path would have turned out differently?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Isn't believing God is to obey God?? I think so. Believing is obeying! Can't have one without the other.

Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him;
KJV

2 Thess 1:8

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
KJV

Acts 5:32

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that OBEY him.
KJV

Apostles taught salvation and Holy Ghost come by obedience.

Truth Seeker
Where do you find that? Peter told the crowd on the day of Pentecost that the Holy Ghost was a gift. And what commandments must be obeyed to be saved? The command to be baptized?

You quoted several scriptures with the words obey and salvation in them trying to prove a point that one must obey someones list of commands to have salvation instituted in their lives.

Well here is a news flash, we know that every translation has its differances because new understanding of the greek come to us as time goes on. But one thing God has never left in confusion is how to be saved. But it is not from a plan of works. It is a plan of faith in God.

What works did the children of Isreal have to obey to be save when bitten by the serpent in OT? They had to look at the serpent Moses had lifted up. Now I guess you could say looking up with faith was a work. Every action can be looked at as a work.

But the only action Jesus said to Nicodemus he had to do was to be born again. And it was not a three part plan. John 3:1-16, you can try as long as you like to make born of water into baptism but it just is not there in that passage, unless you take verse 3:5 completely out of contex with the rest of the passage. How do you fit water baptism into looking to the cross with faith to be saved, as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wildreness?

Now don't be drugged by the works based teachings that are all around you, just because a word in your KJB is translated obey does not make it mean what obey in the English language means. Get a good bible dictionary I like Vines. Strongs concordence with the greek and hebrew is good to. If you are not suprised at what you find when you start to check the base meaning of many of the words used to preach works based doctrines I will be suprised.

Just to give you a primer their are at least 3 greek words that are trans. from greed to english as obey, and only one has the significance given by works based teachings and that is found in Ephesians 6:1. this verse is not the only example but then don't take my word for it or your pastor, check it out for your self.

[pastorrush]

Dr. Phil your right Truth is truth does not have anything to do with a organazation but it has everything to do with the message , and you will find what the Apostles preached to sinners in the book of Acts .Romans to Revelations was written to churches or people allready saved.Even in the Gospel"s it said He that believith and is Baptized will be saved.So if you believe you still have to obey the message want to be Apostolic I point you back to Acts Chapt. 2, YTOU CAN REJECT IT BUT I AM AFRAID IT WILL BE AT YOUR PERIL.

[geekette]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

If you had been in a church that was truly grace-based, do you think your path would have turned out differently?

Ultimately, no.

I had (and have) too many unanswered questions.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by geekette

Being honest, I can't say that I have a testimony of it today, but it had a huge impact on my life.

Geekette,

I'm sorry for the things you have gone through. I can feel the pain in your post (at least the pain that used to be). Just know that others have gone through similar things and we understand.

[Sister Alvear]

I am praying for you.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by pastorrush

Dr. Phil your right Truth is truth does not have anything to do with a organazation but it has everything to do with the message , and you will find what the Apostles preached to sinners in the book of Acts .Romans to Revelations was written to churches or people allready saved.Even in the Gospel"s it said He that believith and is Baptized will be saved.So if you believe you still have to obey the message want to be Apostolic I point you back to Acts Chapt. 2, YTOU CAN REJECT IT BUT I AM AFRAID IT WILL BE AT YOUR PERIL.

Just saying we believe does not mean we truly believe! Believing brings
action. A husband may tell his wife he loves her. But words alone does not
prove he truly loves her. Does he provide for her. Does he show her he
loves her by his actions.

You can see a house on fire and run to the door and tell the occupants to
get out, your home's on fire. If they believe, they move to get out!
If they say thank you, I appreciate it, return to the couch, and continue to
listen to the evening news, etc.,they didn't really believe, they just said they
did! Empty words signifying NOTHING!

Heb. 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to
God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that dili-
gently seek him.

Recently someone on here, told of all they did to receive the Holy Ghost,
and still did not speak in tongues. They now confess to being full of the
Spirit without speaking in tongues. I believe they lacked part of the initial
part! Failed to believe that HE IS A REWARDER of them that diligently seek
HIM. We must seek HIM with our WHOLE heart. Withholding nothing!

A woman once told me she couldn't show her husband how much she loved him.
She was afraid he would take advantage of her love. It was a warped marri-
age for sure. Are some afraid to show JESUS how much they love HIM or DO
they love Him at all! Some may be afraid of showing emotion. Afraid they will
lose control. He showed HIS LOVE first!
Try that in a marriage. Express no emotion and see how long that marriage
lasts. I'm not talking about "faking it" either! Why not "FAITH IT! Just let go
and LET (allow, permit) GOD! LET the SPIRIT lead the way! Are we afraid to
LET GO and LET GOD. AFRAID of letting (allowing, permitting HIM to take
control of us. Of our tongue. No man can tame the tongue and if we
will (our strong human will), resists allowing or permitting the Spirit from
"taming", or taking control of our whole body, including our tongue, we lose
out!

We don't need to seek tongues. We need to first believe that HE IS and
that HE IS a REWARDER of them that diligently seek HIM. WISE men/women
still seek HIM! Words can be so cheap, if not followed by action!

Bro. Rush, I am not addressing this necessarily to you! I just used a part of
your post to connect to. Thank you!

Falla39

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by geekette

This was a long time ago (just over thirty years ago--I was 19). I took the holiness standards very, very seriously. Very Seriously. But I also realized that I couldn't keep them. I skipped Sunday evening church twice so I could watch "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" on my landlady's TV. The guilt for doing that consumed me. I took everything so very, very seriously. I developed insane headaches every Sunday from the stress. I got to the point where I thought I'd be better off dead, because then I wouldn't feel like I was constantly breaking the rules and disappointing Jesus.



It was extremely difficult. I'd dropped out of college (where I was an honor student) and moved in with church people. Consequently, I wasn't on good relations with my parents and I had to apologize when I moved back to the house.

Then I had nightmares for weeks and months afterward about how I'd abandoned the church. Important church members showed up in my dreams to remonstrate with me. For sure I was going to hell. I became suicidal. The mother of one of my high school friends had to basically talk me "off the ledge." She'd seen me in the hall at the community college and told me to come to her house to talk to her as I looked awful.



For about a year afterward, I went to another UPC with a friend of mine from the community college. Then I went off to university in another city. Now I live in an entirely different state. I've occasionally dropped in on church but never felt compelled to stay.

Now, considering that on some days I think of myself as an agnostic and on others an atheist, I'd say that I'd gone way beyond your concerns and I can't answer your question.



Yes. I miss the certainty I had then. But I also don't miss the incredible strain I was under.

I also wish that I'd been diagnosed and treated for chronic major depression then. But that didn't happen for another two decades.



Maybe if I hadn't left so abruptly. But I really was just this side of a nervous breakdown or worse.



Since I can't say that I believe God exists, I don't have a walk with God. As for self-condemnation and brainwashing, after this long, the answer's no. If anything, I'm probably exceedingly cynical about people's motivations. I know I always question my own motivations. "Am I doing X because I think it will get me in good graces?" I ask the question far less now that I am not sure if God exists.

I should note that I live with a real contradiction: I went to a newish Apostolic church last Sunday and the pastor pegged me right off as having Apostolic background. (I'm still trying to figure out how he could tell; it couldn't just be the long hair.) However, I felt compelled to go home that afternoon and write a long list of "Why I'd Make a Lousy Apostolic." Of course, the list started with, "Some days I'm agnostic and some days I'm atheist."

[Mirth1981]

Originally Posted by faithit166

mirth you stated that you did not intend for this thread to become a debate,but that is exactly what has happened you say that their are things that you are struggling with coming on to this forum you are opening yourselves to many others opinion when the only opinion that matters is god.you will always find someone who is going thru some of the same issues,if you struggle with standards take it before god and wait on him ive been on this forum for about 1 week now read alot i hear many people bashing upc regardless the issues they have or what one may think i do not believe this is pleasing to god ,by any means listen to god miryth he has your answers

I never said that I struggled with standards. I was struggling with how to leave the UPC. That was the point of this thread. I wanted insight from those that had also left, because the organization makes it very difficult for people to leave without being mistreated.

And I did leave the UPC btw. And I have no regrets whatsoever that I'm not a part of that organization anymore. I feel relieved actually. So relieved.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Mirth1981

I never said that I struggled with standards. I was struggling with how to leave the UPC. That was the point of this thread. I wanted insight from those that had also left, because the organization makes it very difficult for people to leave without being mistreated.

And I did leave the UPC btw. And I have no regrets whatsoever that I'm not a part of that organization anymore. I feel relieved actually. So relieved.

I left the UPC in 2005. I never struggled with keeping standards at all. As a matter of fact, I mostly enjoyed it at the time. It is a fallacy that Apostolics have that people who leave don't love God enough to keep standards and just want to be like "the world". I am very relieved I left too. Time has made me happier than ever.