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  #171  
Old 08-09-2010, 11:06 AM
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Re: Why Acts 2:38?

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Originally Posted by faithit166 View Post
cornelius was a joint heir after he was baptized in jesus name and filled with the holy ghost but no where does it say he was before
Romans 8:14 and 8:17 say he was before baptism.
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  #172  
Old 08-09-2010, 11:13 AM
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Re: Why Acts 2:38?

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Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
Romans 8:14 and 8:17 say he was before baptism.
and just how do you get this relating to cornelius,the only way one can bcome born into gods kingdom is by obeying acts 2;38 repentance baptism holy ghost cornelius could not of been a joint heir until he fulfilled the gospel which he needed to be baptized in jesus name and recieve the holy ghost this is the only way you can become a child of god you have to be borne into the kingdom once he did that he became an heir
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  #173  
Old 08-09-2010, 11:17 AM
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Re: Why Acts 2:38?

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Originally Posted by faithit166 View Post
and just how do you get this relating to cornelius,the only way one can bcome born into gods kingdom is by obeying acts 2;38 repentance baptism holy ghost cornelius could not of been a joint heir until he fulfilled the gospel which he needed to be baptized in jesus name and recieve the holy ghost this is the only way you can become a child of god you have to be borne into the kingdom once he did that he became an heir
Was Cornelius being led by the Spirit of God after he received the Holy Ghost and before he was baptized? If so then he was a son of God before baptism (Romans 8:14). And if he was a son of God before baptism then he also was a child of God before baptism. And if he was a child of God before baptism then he also was a joint heir with Christ before baptism (Romans 8:17).

So yes or no? Was Cornelius being led by the Spirit of God after he received the Holy Ghost but before he was baptized?
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  #174  
Old 08-09-2010, 11:29 AM
faithit166 faithit166 is offline
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Re: Why Acts 2:38?

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Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
Was Cornelius being led by the Spirit of God after he received the Holy Ghost and before he was baptized? If so then he was a son of God before baptism (Romans 8:14). And if he was a son of God before baptism then he also was a child of God before baptism. And if he was a child of God before baptism then he also was a joint heir with Christ before baptism (Romans 8:17).

So yes or no? Was Cornelius being led by the Spirit of God after he received the Holy Ghost but before he was baptized?
the bible says the spirit shall guide us into all truth the lord led cornelius to peter but cornelius needed more than what he had ,he met cornelius where he was at,was he born into gods kingdom before he recieved the holy ghost and was baptized no but after he recieved the holy ghost and was baptized he became a joint heir,cornelius was open to god cornelius could have rejected but he didnt.
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  #175  
Old 08-09-2010, 12:03 PM
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Re: Why Acts 2:38?

I feel blessed from what I feel the Lord gave to me regarding BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW EVEN SAVE US in 1 Peter 3.

I just re-read this passage again in its entirety, and believe I have found some nuggets that are priceless indeed! For those interested, let me share them.

1 Peter 3:18-22 KJV For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (22) Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Verse 18 sets the picture. Jesus died in the flesh and was quickened by the Spirit.
Keep this in mind as we read on.

It was by that same Spirit that quickened Him that he preached to the spirits in prison. This is a controversial passage, but of no consequence in the overall issue of water baptism. However, I believe it is saying that Noah preached in his day to those who are now in "prison" as spirits. since they disobeyed Noah and perished, in the anointing of the Spirit of Christ. He preached about salvation by water, which of course meant entrance into the ark.

Peter then stated that the picture of Noah preaching in the anointing of the Spirit for the people to be saved by water (regardless if we have a Genesis account of that preaching or not, the point is the same) is a figure of how baptism saves us. Baptism of course involves water.

Peter gave a disclaimer in parentheses, saying the salvation is not cleansing filth of the flesh, so that we do not derive a legalistic merely mechanical concept where faith is not required. And then Peter proceeded to state how the salvation in baptism is possible.
...baptism doth also now save us ... by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Consider those words. Baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus.

I believe this is inseparable from the understanding we find in Romans 6 regarding baptism. There, Paul stated that the entire reason we are baptized into Christ's death is because Christ resurrected from His death. In other words, we will share His resurrection if we enjoin ourselves to His death. Since He resurrected from His death, when we are baptized into that death we will likewise, therefore, resurrect with Him! In THAT SENSE, baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

It reminds me of the other very controversial words found in 1 Cor 15.
1 Corinthians 15:29 KJV (29) Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Baptism FOR THE DEAD in this verse, I believe, means we are baptized BECAUSE OF CHRIST'S DEATH. We are baptized into His death (Ro 6:3) because His death caused Him to resurrect. What is the purpose of baptism into the death of Jesus if there is no resurrection from the dead? If Jesus did not resurrect, then the reason for baptism's salvation is lost! Peter said baptism saves us by the resurrection of Jesus. In other words, if Jesus did not resurrect from the dead, why bother with baptism? Our purpose in being baptized is to resurrect with Jesus.

And Peter continued his words say that baptism saves us by the resurrection of Jesus which then led to Jesus Christ's seating at the right hand over all powers.
1 Peter 3:21-22 KJV The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us ... by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (22) Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
In other words, this salvation in baptism is possible by the resurrection of Jesus Christ who went to such an extent of resurrection that He was seated at the right hand throne of God!

OH WOW. This is just coming to me now. I never saw this until I wrote this post....

Keep reading.
1 Peter 4:1-2 KJV Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; (2) That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
When we keep reading from chapter 3, we realize the SALVATION IS FROM SIN. As much as Jesus resurrected and went to the right hand place of POWER (hint hint), we do not have to live the rest of our time in the flesh to the lusts of the flesh and all its sins! It took us to the place of KINGDOM POWER over the lusts of the flesh.

Paul said the same thing.
Romans 8:11-12 KJV But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Romans 6:6-7 KJV Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 6:12 KJV Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
The common denominator in Peter and Romans is that the Spirit that resurrected Jesus can quicken us so that we do not have to live after the flesh.

When you compare Peter's words with Paul's in Romans 6 and 8, it all comes together!
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Last edited by mfblume; 08-09-2010 at 12:52 PM.
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  #176  
Old 08-09-2010, 01:49 PM
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Re: Why Acts 2:38?

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Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
Why is it that no one will address the fact that Romans 8:14 and 8:17 make it clear that Cornelius was a joint heir with Christ the moment he was filled with the Spirit and began to be led by it? Why is it that no one will address how he can be a joint heir with Christ but not be saved?
a one-stepper does not have a problem with that.

a one-stepper believes that a person is justified/saved/born again when the person believes in Jesus and confesses Him as Lord. That salvation experience may or may not be followed by baptism in water and baptism in the Spirit. A one-stepper believes everyone should follow up their salvation experience with water baptism (preferably with the Name "Jesus" being spoken but no problem if titles like "Lord" and/or "Christ" are spoken) and with the Holy Ghost Baptism for increased effectivity and power in serving God (ref Acts 1:4-8).

A one-stepper believes that a person is Justified/saved/born again prior to and without the two baptisms of water and Spirit, and a one-stepper believes that person is justified/saved/born again even if he never gets baptized in water or baptized in the Spirit.

This may not reflect the belief of every one-stepper but it reflects the belief of this one-stepper.
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  #177  
Old 08-10-2010, 07:54 AM
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Re: Why Acts 2:38?

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Originally Posted by faithit166 View Post
the bible says the spirit shall guide us into all truth the lord led cornelius to peter but cornelius needed more than what he had ,he met cornelius where he was at,was he born into gods kingdom before he recieved the holy ghost and was baptized no but after he recieved the holy ghost and was baptized he became a joint heir,cornelius was open to god cornelius could have rejected but he didnt.
First of all the bible is speaking to believers when it says the Spirit shall guide us into all truth.

Secondly, can people be led by God without having the Holy Spirit? You said Cornelius was. I find that very interesting. So what exactly does the gift of the Holy Spirit do for those who are already being led by God before they receive it? Personally I have no doubt that Cornelius was being led by God before he received the Holy Ghost, however I've always taken the reception of the Holy Ghost to mean that God is now leading a person in a much deeper/greater way. It is this way which I view Romans 8:14 as speaking about. It is in that way that Cornelius was being led by the Holy Ghost before baptism.

Perhaps the best question to ask you is to show me where baptism imparts upon anyone the leading of the Spirit of God? Baptism never does this and so the leading of the Spirit of God in Romans 8:14 must take place at some other event than baptism.
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Last edited by jfrog; 08-10-2010 at 08:12 AM.
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  #178  
Old 08-10-2010, 09:58 AM
faithit166 faithit166 is offline
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Re: Why Acts 2:38?

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Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
First of all the bible is speaking to believers when it says the Spirit shall guide us into all truth.

Secondly, can people be led by God without having the Holy Spirit? You said Cornelius was. I find that very interesting. So what exactly does the gift of the Holy Spirit do for those who are already being led by God before they receive it? Personally I have no doubt that Cornelius was being led by God before he received the Holy Ghost, however I've always taken the reception of the Holy Ghost to mean that God is now leading a person in a much deeper/greater way. It is this way which I view Romans 8:14 as speaking about. It is in that way that Cornelius was being led by the Holy Ghost before baptism.

Perhaps the best question to ask you is to show me where baptism imparts upon anyone the leading of the Spirit of God? Baptism never does this and so the leading of the Spirit of God in Romans 8:14 must take place at some other event than baptism.
can people be led by god without having the holy spirit? absolutely we cannot even come to god unless his spirit draws us john 6;44 now we know god heareth not sinners?john 9;31 but if any man be a worshipper of god and doeth his will him he heareth now we know the first thing a sinner must do is repent when we are truly repentant i believe god hears us he knows our heart jeremiah 29;13 says you will seek me and find me when you seek for me with your whole heart,god knows our heart he has to draw us to him we are not born to go to god when paul recieved the revelation of who jesus was was he saved then no but god led him to aninias and the lord told him he would tell him what he must do god led him to aninias and he was filled with the holy ghost and was baptized,if paul was saved then why did he lead paul to aninias because god had more for him he did not have everything he needed this is the spirit guiding us into all truth
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  #179  
Old 08-10-2010, 10:08 AM
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Re: Why Acts 2:38?

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Originally Posted by faithit166 View Post
can people be led by god without having the holy spirit? absolutely we cannot even come to god unless his spirit draws us john 6;44 now we know god heareth not sinners?john 9;31 but if any man be a worshipper of god and doeth his will him he heareth now we know the first thing a sinner must do is repent when we are truly repentant i believe god hears us he knows our heart jeremiah 29;13 says you will seek me and find me when you seek for me with your whole heart,god knows our heart he has to draw us to him we are not born to go to god when paul recieved the revelation of who jesus was was he saved then no but god led him to aninias and the lord told him he would tell him what he must do god led him to aninias and he was filled with the holy ghost and was baptized,if paul was saved then why did he lead paul to aninias because god had more for him he did not have everything he needed this is the spirit guiding us into all truth
I understood your argument clearly. I addressed it and you simply rehashed it again. Let me ask you my question this way.

At what point in time does Romans 8:14 begin to apply to Cornelius?
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  #180  
Old 08-10-2010, 10:41 AM
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Re: Why Acts 2:38?

after he was baptized in jesus name and filled with the holy ghost he was then born into gods kingdom he obeyed acts 2;38
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