Tithe-vs-Paying Your Bills

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

I quote myself here ..Much of the transactions came from gold, jewelry, land deeds, etc.

maybe I should have mentioned silver too since it was precious metals. They did not have a currency outside of gold, silver, land possessions, and of course agricultural. I didn't say they are only agricultural barter societies but that was ONE of their main practices.

Our money today is backed by these things, but they did not have the type of currency we have, which is what we pay tithes off of.

I don't think you understand that the covenantal premise was that the land belonged to the LORD. Therefore all farmers tithed strictly of herds and crops. Jews living outside of the Holy Land didn't tithe. The tithe was directly connected to the land. In Abraham's day giving a tenth of war spoils to the local king as an offering of peace was an ancient custom, primarily among the Heathen. That's why Abraham only tithed a tenth of war spoils from Sodom.

There isn't anything in Scripture that would make tithing binding upon Christians. Neither tithing nor circumcision (or anything in the Law for that matter) is binding upon Christians. The first century gentile church gave abundantly as they determined in their hearts, that includes money, goods, and services.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

I do not give out compliments very often on here, and I am not saying this to be crass or rude, but D4T just hit the ball out of the park.

He had some good points.. I also misunderstood what he was saying

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I don't think you understand that the covenantal premise was that the land belonged to the LORD. Therefore all farmers tithed strictly of herds and crops. Jews living outside of the Holy Land didn't tithe. The tithe was directly connected to the land. In Abraham's day giving a tenth of war spoils to the local king as an offering of peace was an ancient custom, primarily among the Heathen. That's why Abraham only tithed a tenth of war spoils from Sodom.

The tenth that he paid was stolen goods he retrieved that were Sodom's and Lot's ( See Genesis 14:11-16)

There isn't anything in Scripture that would make tithing binding upon Christians. Neither tithing nor circumcision (or anything in the Law for that matter) is binding upon Christians. The first century gentile church gave abundantly as they determined in their hearts, that includes money, goods, and services.
Jesus told the Pharisees to tithe and do the weightier matters
. Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Abraham's tithing trumped Leviticial priesthood tithing

30.Hebrews 7:6
But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.


31.Hebrews 7:8
And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.


32.Hebrews 7:9
And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham

see above underlined answer

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

I'm happy to pay the tithe and when I don't, my finances don't work out. you can say its false all you want, but you better check the Holy Ghost my friend. that being said I have no problem with the setup that was described in Ohio. Just don't knock that tithing is both scriptural and just because people preach "hell if you don't" does not go against the practice itself. I have never been extorted into paying tithes.

Tithing, as traditionally taught is extortion. Biblically tithing isn't required of Christians. I have no problem with a person who freely chooses to give a tenth of their entire income to the work of the LORD. However, to teach that one has robbed God and is backslidden unless they give their 10% (as is taught in most churches) is fleecing the flock.

I've heard claims time and time again that tithing liberates one's finances. First, those who do tithe tend to budget. That means that their finances appear to work better. Second, if this were a spiritual principle, tithers would be among the most wealthy and financially stable people on earth. Demographics on tithing shows that primarily poorer income people are more likely to tithe than wealthier people. Why are the vast majority still poor and living from paycheck to paycheck? Why don't they have a healthy retirement account to bless their children's children? I've been in Pentecost for over 20 years and I can honestly say that the vast majority tithers I've known aren't all that blessed financially. Most churches still struggle to pay their bills and have fund raisers to increase giving to sustain their operation.

In the churches I've attended all taught that one "had to tithe" to be a member "in good standing", meaning they couldn't minister or serve in leadership if they weren't able to tithe. Extortion.

Where else on earth will you find a 10% membership fee to be a member??? It's robbery.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

7Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

8Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

9Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

11And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

12And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.



Where in this discourse D4t does it say that Malachi is addressing only the priesthood?

The first part of Malachi talks about John the Baptist. He is who the Lord will use to purge the sons of Levi.

The first problem with this discussion if you are convinced it was only the priesthood robbing God. Where do you get that?


Second
But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

What in that verse says that the scripture just is dealing with the tithes?

You have to read before the scriptures you posted to find out who the "ye have robbed me" are.


Since God changes not should all scriptures on tithing be taught and followed?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

The studies that I have seen are impressive, and actually convict me that I really need to do more of it!

Belief is a powerful thing, to many heathenistic and cultish religions there system works and they feel strongly that there is evidence of the truth in their belief system. In some cases pointing out flawed knowledge is not enough to bring someone out of false doctrine or even doctrines of devils.

Likewise, there are many in the Christian faith that have long stood by certain doctrines, claiming the validity of said doctrine and again they feel there is proof sufficient to state their case - does this mean that all bible doctrines that are tought over the various pulpits of amereica and beyond are true and accurate...NO. Some are earnestly taught with sincerity with all the knowledge that the teacher/preacher may know.

So much of this is a heart issue and not a set formula that equals success or failure. No matter what set amount 10, 20, 30, percent etc., it is still imperative that if you believe there is truly a curse for not abiding by thw 10% then you are taking the entirety of the law, so that if you claim the curse of the law in one area, you then must live by the whole law.

Sometimes we live in our own little bubble and do not have the swath of experience with which to draw from. There are obviously folks who tithe and are blessed, and there are those who give generously but do not tithe and they are blessed. Both of these folks may indeed suffer hardship financially at some point - does that mean God abandoned one or the other...NO. The rain falls on the just and unjust alike, its called life.

I have seen a whole lot more Biblical precidence given for free will offerings and not a NT law to tithe then the other way around. The law of sowing and reaping is indeed true, and IMHO the blessing is directly linked with the heart of the giver and the gift to be given.

Amen. Wonderful post.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Aquila

In the churches I've attended all taught that one "had to tithe" to be a member "in good standing", meaning they couldn't minister or serve in leadership if they weren't able to tithe. Extortion.

Bingo.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

You have to read before the scriptures you posted to find out who the "ye have robbed me" are.


Since God changes not should all scriptures on tithing be taught and followed?

No the afore scriptures talk about John the baptist and what he will do.. read it real closely

Only the principle, not the law IMO

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Well I would be breaking two principles I live by

1. One I would be missing the blessing of God that he has continually gave me through the years by being faithful in tithes and giving.

I'm guessing, but I'd say that tithing is a significant sacrifice for you and your family. I'm convinced that the law of sowing and reaping applies. You're blessed because you're sacrificing. AND THAT'S A GOOD THING. However, you're not blessed simply because you give 10% of your income.

2. Two I would be going against the teaching of the spiritual authority the Lord has placed me under for my soul.

The end result would not be good

This is another teaching that deserves it's own address. Spiritual authority is abused in most traditional churches in America. Pastors are to be servants... not lords or authoritarian figures that the flock feels bound to serve. We're all kings and priests in this kingdom. Pentecost seems to have done away with the concept of the "priesthood of all believers" when it embraced the principles of the Shepherding Movement that the Charismatics introduced. The end result has created a generation of passive Pentecostals who are entertainment driven and are largely only spectators in the Kingdom getting their "Sunday fix" from their church service.

If they'd release the body... we'd turn the world upside down in our generation.

We're slowly becoming Catholic.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Tithing, as traditionally taught is extortion. Biblically tithing isn't required of Christians. I have no problem with a person who freely chooses to give a tenth of their entire income to the work of the LORD. However, to teach that one has robbed God and is backslidden unless they give their 10% (as is taught in most churches) is fleecing the flock.

I've heard claims time and time again that tithing liberates one's finances. First, those who do tithe tend to budget. That means that their finances appear to work better. Second, if this were a spiritual principle, tithers would be among the most wealthy and financially stable people on earth. Demographics on tithing shows that primarily poorer income people are more likely to tithe than wealthier people. Why are the vast majority still poor and living from paycheck to paycheck? Why don't they have a healthy retirement account to bless their children's children? I've been in Pentecost for over 20 years and I can honestly say that the vast majority tithers I've known aren't all that blessed financially. Most churches still struggle to pay their bills and have fund raisers to increase giving to sustain their operation.

In the churches I've attended all taught that one "had to tithe" to be a member "in good standing", meaning they couldn't minister or serve in leadership if they weren't able to tithe. Extortion.

Where else on earth will you find a 10% membership fee to be a member??? It's robbery.

If you want to call following abraham's principle robbery, go ahead.

Its blessing to all who do it in our church and I mean no disrespect by the statement above.