For those that left the UPC...

[SavedLou]

Originally Posted by Sam

...Both trinitarians and oneness believe that there is one God. Both trinitarians and oneness believe that Jesus is that one God come in flesh. We both understand that there is one God. What we do not understand is all the minute details of how God can be one and three at the same time. We have several opinions expressed here on the forum from time to time about "oneness" and we all seem to disagree with one another, insult one another, and make fun of one another over it.

So true Bro Sam. Having been raised trinitarian, it makes it difficult to sit through a service where we pray openly from the pulpit that they would be delivered from their "pagan" beliefs of worshipping "3 gods". But in reality, the majority of oneness folks don't know that most trinitarians don't believe that way. Some do, but most are just confused by the trinity and believe more closely to oneness. I did. LOL--most Godhead sermons I heard in the Baptist church were quoting the same scriptures oneness uses.

In response to the OP, I completely sympathize as I am going through something similar, but thankfully my hubby and I are on the same page. After 12 years in this, I have really been searching things out lately and am now at a crossroads, as SO many that I know are. We're torn between wanting to attend a Jesus' name baptizing, HG filled church, but tired of man-made standards being such an issue and the same ole, same ole sermons that never change. "Laying again the foundations" and not much else. And I and several others have left the choir, etc b/c our pastor has asked ministry/platform folks to look the part 100% and we don't anymore. It's basically impossible to find a church to feel completely comfortable in. Praying for direction!

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by SavedLou

So true Bro Sam. Having been raised trinitarian, it makes it difficult to sit through a service where we pray openly from the pulpit that they would be delivered from their "pagan" beliefs of worshipping "3 gods". But in reality, the majority of oneness folks don't know that most trinitarians don't believe that way. Some do, but most are just confused by the trinity and believe more closely to oneness. I did. LOL--most Godhead sermons I heard in the Baptist church were quoting the same scriptures oneness uses.

In response to the OP, I completely sympathize as I am going through something similar, but thankfully my hubby and I are on the same page. After 12 years in this, I have really been searching things out lately and am now at a crossroads, as SO many that I know are. We're torn between wanting to attend a Jesus' name baptizing, HG filled church, but tired of man-made standards being such an issue and the same ole, same ole sermons that never change. "Laying again the foundations" and not much else. And I and several others have left the choir, etc b/c our pastor has asked ministry/platform folks to look the part 100% and we don't anymore. It's basically impossible to find a church to feel completely comfortable in. Praying for direction!

True Many Trinitarians are actually oneness!!
The standards, really pray and seek God. The standards are boundaries to help us stay on the right path. They are banners to what we are inwardly. Early Holiness preached these under the inspiration of God. Catholic and protestant churches all had plain dress as a practice until modern times ( we can look at pictures to see)

Standards are not how we earn salvation and that seems to be the teaching. Pray that God will lead you the right direction and remember, its only by his grace we can be holy, whether outward or inward or both.

[SavedLou]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

True Many Trinitarians are actually oneness!!
The standards, really pray and seek God. The standards are boundaries to help us stay on the right path. They are banners to what we are inwardly. Early Holiness preached these under the inspiration of God. Catholic and protestant churches all had plain dress as a practice until modern times ( we can look at pictures to see)

Standards are not how we earn salvation and that seems to be the teaching. Pray that God will lead you the right direction and remember, its only by his grace we can be holy, whether outward or inward or both.

Thanks for your kindness and sincerity. I think they are banners usually only to those that are familiar with Pentecost though. Simply seeing someone dressing the standards rarely impresses or convicts people as we would like to think. It is the fruit of the Spirit that does this. Now I certainly believe in modesty, moderation and morality. I simply feel that so many man made standards are not truly Biblically based. They were founded with wonderful intentions, but most are usually based on one scripture. I do still hold to some standards, but I am growing weary of the inconsistencies. Ex. No jewelry but you can wear rhinestone embellished broaches, hair accessories, feathers in the hair, etc. We embrace "it's a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven" and reject in the very same book "it's a shame for a woman to speak in church". We say man is over woman spiritually but ordain women to be pastors. You go to UPC camps and see girls in skirts/dresses that are skin tight but who would never wear pants (gasp). I believe in principles, such as women should look like women and men like men, but things like ONE scripture on men's garments in the OT leaves room for debate. I just want people to respect that there are God-fearing, sincere Pentecostals that may have a different opinion than others and they shouldn't be made to feel they are eternally lost and backslidden, you know?

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by SavedLou

Thanks for your kindness and sincerity. I think they are banners usually only to those that are familiar with Pentecost though. Simply seeing someone dressing the standards rarely impresses or convicts people as we would like to think. It is the fruit of the Spirit that does this. Now I certainly believe in modesty, moderation and morality. I simply feel that so many man made standards are not truly Biblically based. They were founded with wonderful intentions, but most are usually based on one scripture. I do still hold to some standards, but I am growing weary of the inconsistencies. Ex. No jewelry but you can wear rhinestone embellished broaches, hair accessories, feathers in the hair, etc. We embrace "it's a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven" and reject in the very same book "it's a shame for a woman to speak in church". We say man is over woman spiritually but ordain women to be pastors. You go to UPC camps and see girls in skirts/dresses that are skin tight but who would never wear pants (gasp). I believe in principles, such as women should look like women and men like men, but things like ONE scripture on men's garments in the OT leaves room for debate. I just want people to respect that there are God-fearing, sincere Pentecostals that may have a different opinion than others and they shouldn't be made to feel they are eternally lost and backslidden, you know?

Just thought I should note that the scripture says "IF it is a shame..." not "it is a shame"

1 Cor 11:6 "For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

[SavedLou]

Originally Posted by faithit166

absolutely,they were called breeches,exodus 28;42 And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach and they shall be upon aaron and upon his sons when they come into the tabernacle of the congregation or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place that they bare not iniquity and die it shall be a statute forever unto him and his seed after him,so absolutely yes they wore breeches in strongs concordone breeches are described as underwear drawers or trousers 2 a priestly undergarment, i ran across this site if youre interested in reading some god bless http://christianhospitality.org/chweb/clothes.pdf

So...basically they wore underwear right?
I certainly understand the fact that those men wore undergarments (under their robes) but it's not a valid argument for pants vs skirts. If anything, the commandment for women to not wear "garments that pertaineth to a man" may actually mean women shouldn't wear underwear. Maybe we should all be wearing robes, some of us going commando and others not! ??? LOL

I've heard it debated that women should wear skirts and men pants b/c the types of robes were different for men and women, but that would also hold true for both types of pants today.

[SavedLou]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Just thought I should note that the scripture says "IF it is a shame..." not "it is a shame"

1 Cor 11:6 "For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

Yep..it's the other one that says "it is".

[Sam]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

True Many Trinitarians are actually oneness!!
...

They may believe what we call "oneness" but to them it is "trinity."

There are extreme trinitarians that teach what we would call tritheism
and there are extreme oneness that teach some kind of modalism where Jesus is no longer the Son of God.

Back in the late 1970's Bro. Gosey was preaching at our ALJC church one Sunday night and he said some thing like, "oneness and trinitarians actually believe the same but the explain it differently." I think that's true.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by SavedLou

Thanks for your kindness and sincerity. I think they are banners usually only to those that are familiar with Pentecost though. Simply seeing someone dressing the standards rarely impresses or convicts people as we would like to think. It is the fruit of the Spirit that does this. Now I certainly believe in modesty, moderation and morality. I simply feel that so many man made standards are not truly Biblically based. They were founded with wonderful intentions, but most are usually based on one scripture. I do still hold to some standards, but I am growing weary of the inconsistencies. Ex. No jewelry but you can wear rhinestone embellished broaches, hair accessories, feathers in the hair, etc. We embrace "it's a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven" and reject in the very same book "it's a shame for a woman to speak in church". We say man is over woman spiritually but ordain women to be pastors. You go to UPC camps and see girls in skirts/dresses that are skin tight but who would never wear pants (gasp). I believe in principles, such as women should look like women and men like men, but things like ONE scripture on men's garments in the OT leaves room for debate. I just want people to respect that there are God-fearing, sincere Pentecostals that may have a different opinion than others and they shouldn't be made to feel they are eternally lost and backslidden, you know?

Oh totally agree which is why I said to you what I did. I've seen God show the truths of the standard teaching to those who don't agree and they be fine with it. I believe God can give that understanding to everyone who seeks.

Just might want to look into what the scriptures were addressing when it talkes about women not speaking in church. Women spoke many times in the scriptures of prophetess and workers in the NT church. Paul was addressing a specific issue with those were not called to the ministry but felt they were called to disrupt and usurp authority..

I agree with the excess of wearing such, yet just because some seem to misalign themselves with decorating their clothes, does not make the other right that the wearing of jewelry is not dangerous to the heart. Both are and I agree both should be addressed and I have heard where they have been, but you are not going to hear that at GC. hehe (holiness is left mostly to pastor of individual churches and rightly so. Why do we need to be telling saints at another church under another pastor how wrong they are. We should talk to the shepherd if we have questions rather than talking about his sheep.)

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Sam

They may believe what we call "oneness" but to them it is "trinity."

There are extreme trinitarians that teach what we would call tritheism
and there are extreme oneness that teach some kind of modalism where Jesus is no longer the Son of God.

Back in the late 1970's Bro. Gosey was preaching at our ALJC church one Sunday night and he said some thing like, "oneness and trinitarians actually believe the same but the explain it differently." I think that's true.

Well actually only certain oneness and certain trinitarians believe similar.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by SavedLou

So...basically they wore underwear right?
I certainly understand the fact that those men wore undergarments (under their robes) but it's not a valid argument for pants vs skirts. If anything, the commandment for women to not wear "garments that pertaineth to a man" may actually mean women shouldn't wear underwear. Maybe we should all be wearing robes, some of us going commando and others not! ??? LOL

I've heard it debated that women should wear skirts and men pants b/c the types of robes were different for men and women, but that would also hold true for both types of pants today.

We know that the robes (if thats what they wore.. lol) would have to be significantly different so that even from a distance you could tell them apart. Something that is an abomination in the law could not have allowed otherwise.

(think harlots caught had to wear certain garments that distinguished them)