Where is the five fold ministry?

[Sabby]

The five-fold ministry is alive and well today. Traditional churches have diminished some of the roles (like that of an apostle). I have heard some ministers (not op) say that the office of an apostle was done away with after the death of the last apostle in the church of the book of Acts.
R.V. Reynolds taught that an apostle was "one sent"...In many ways he was an apostle himself, having gone into Canadian villages to establish churches and a couple of Bible Colleges.
Alvin Cobb was sent to Europe in the 1970s-80s and established two of the largest op military works. Many preachers/teachers came out of both of those works.
Ellis Scism was sent to India as a op missionary and established works that that not existed up to that time. I think these three men represent present day apostles. They are God-called to literally "open up" areas that had never had the gospel preached. In some ways home missions pastor/founders are the same, and it wouldn't be a stretch to call someone God sends to a certain town or location to establish a ministry/church as an apostle.

Prophets are "foretellers" or by analogy those that are inspired speakers (SC). The definition of a 21st century prophet varies and is not to be confused with one of the 9 gifts of the Spirit. However, I'll venture to say that someone God is using in the gift of prophecy, is at that time, being used as a prophet. This is probably the most misunderstood of the five-fold ministry and is the most abused by those claiming its mantle. (I appreciate what I heard Al Gossan say, that you have no authority in your words but what is found in the Word of God.). Some will say that today's prophets are "forth-tellers" but there's no proof-text for that definition.
A prophet can, by extension, be a poet (SC). A prophet is someone that God calls and uses to edify the Body by providing insight for future events which outcomes are unknown through visions, dreams and "inspired speaking"/preaching. I doubt it has much to do with interpretation of tongues. Imo, Kenneth Phillips would at times be used as a prophet.
Also jmo, the apostle Paul used the word prophet to describe those that understood the prophecies of the OT as they related to Jesus Christ and used those prophecies in ministry.
This ministry is for the edification and strengthening of the Body of Christ...Jesus Christ, and has nothing to do with natural Israel. The focus is on Christ alone.

Evangelists are the exhorters, the uplifters, those that "warn" and preach the gospel. This office is not to be confused with that of a prophet. At one time or another every preacher is an evangelist as they are doing the work of an "evangel"...they are preaching the gospel. It's important for evangelists not to be a novice (consider Paul's advice to Timothy), nor one that is a super-spiritual green fog (I'm referring to the attitude), because unwise preaching can create confusion and tear up a local church. When evangelists preach the gospel of Jesus Christ (NOT peripheral issues) they are fulfilling their calling. Traditionally they are those invited to preach to local churches in revivals, etc.

Pastors are those that have a heart to shepherd/care for people. A shepherd watches out for wolves, comes against the things that would bring harm to the "flock" of God under his care. The pastor confirms the status of believers as children of God, and is a nurturer, restorer, and protector. Our 21st century paradigm of a pastor is a little off, according to Paul's definition! Any minister that looks to the welfare of the flock could be considered a pastor. Any minister that leads the flock to a place of rest in God is a pastor. The pastor's primary purpose is to strengthen the sheep and lead them to a "safe" place in God, all the while confirming and edifying them.

Teachers are those that are instructors, masters, doctors (SC). They more fully explain the mysteries of the GOSPEL....
The role of the teacher is not given the same consideration as it was perhaps in Jesus' or Paul's day, imo. These are they that ground/disciple the saints. In some ways a pastor is a teacher, but I have met pastors that were not teachers but rather had a heart for people. Some examples of op instructors I have known are Alvin Cobb, Wayne Nigh, Kenneth Saunders, Bob Brooks, Darline Kantola Royer, Dennis Crawford, Anne Wilkins, R.V. Reynolds, John Klemin, Jerry Dillon and Larry Smith. One really good non-op teacher is Charles Stanley.

The five-fold ministry today is alive and well!

[pastorrick1959]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

How many other people may have the same pastoral ministry in your church to help people, but because of the way our churches are set up those gifts cannot be used as then authority of the pastor would be infringe upon. Sorry elder Rick I understand what you are saying but God intends for us all to be used in spiritual capacities not just the one that thinks God called him.

not sure why,you keep accusing me of things .. i have deacons that coucil folks and help me also .. my youth leader deals with alot of youths ,,if any of them have a problem with the poeple they are dealing with ,they come to me .

ive only had the holy ghost since 1977-preaching since 1981- evangelised all over the place and in canada ,,,this is my 2nd time pastoring 4 years now did 5 years before .. i have a little experience ....that is why they lean on me ,not because i am super pastor ,but i am annointed by god , god uses me in wisdom and knowledge and my experience helps others ,, i wont appolagise for that! as far as you thinking that me saying people err is a bad thing --YOU NEED TO WAKE UP. its just a fact my brother. sheep leaves the 99 i go after them!

[pastorrick1959]

good job shingledecker

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by pastorrick1959

not sure why,you keep accusing me of things .. i have deacons that coucil folks and help me also .. my youth leader deals with alot of youths ,,if any of them have a problem with the poeple they are dealing with ,they come to me .

ive only had the holy ghost since 1977-preaching since 1981- evangelised all over the place and in canada ,,,this is my 2nd time pastoring 4 years now did 5 years before .. i have a little experience ....that is why they lean on me ,not because i am super pastor ,but i am annointed by god , god uses me in wisdom and knowledge and my experience helps others ,, i wont appolagise for that! as far as you thinking that me saying people err is a bad thing --YOU NEED TO WAKE UP. its just a fact my brother. sheep leaves the 99 i go after them!

Elder Rick

Don't mean to come accross as if I am accusing you My heart felt apoligys, I do use some of your statements as a spring board again I do not mean to offend.

Onefaith:

I do know what you are saying and understand there is to be leadership, I disagree that Apostleship is not a gift.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
God gave these to the church, and Paul tells us to seek earnestly the best gifts. Which include apostleship, prophecy etc.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Elder Rick

Don't mean to come accross as if I am accusing you My heart felt apoligys, I do use some of your statements as a spring board again I do not mean to offend.

Onefaith:

I do know what you are saying and understand there is to be leadership, I disagree that Apostleship is not a gift.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
God gave these to the church, and Paul tells us to seek earnestly the best gifts. Which include apostleship, prophecy etc.

Notice he mentioned gifts in the scripture after the offices. Paul does make a distinction from how I am reading it.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Notice he mentioned gifts in the scripture after the offices. Paul does make a distinction from how I am reading it.

One faith

I am amazed how we will take what we have been taught as the final word of God with out taking time to truly look for ourselves. Don't get mad at me I am only saying what I have been telling myself over the past couple of year as I come to see just how much Christians have been duped by the traditions of men. You see we have been told for hundreds of years by the RC that only the priest have the power to understand scripture and interprete it. This has still been passed down to some degree to the ministry today. But I beleive my bible that says "seek out your own salvation with fear and trembling", and "study to show thyselves approved a workman that does not need to be ashamed".

As we have been taught by those in years past and passed down over several generations we see what we have been told. Take a closer look with out taking the verses out of context with the rest of the chapter. Paul in no where making a distinction between apostles, prophets,or pastors. As a matter of fact he does not even mention pastors anywhere but in the one passage of Ephesians 4. This whole chapter is teaching the various spiritual gifts of God.

I am not going to go into more detail as it is not my intent to change your mind. God must do that all I can do is put out there what I see and leave God to prove or disprove what I have said. "truth will prevail". I have not ax to grind. Some times it is fun to argue to sharpen our sword. But there comes a time when we must step back and let Gods spirit do the work. This is where we make the mistake and one of the faults I see in the way our ministerial authority is wrong. We think we must change everyone to fit based on what we see as sin. This puts the ministry between the body and the head, Christ. We don't need two heads, the spirit is well able to function through the gifts God has placed in the body, without the offices we call pastorial.

Think about it this way, If Christ is the head and we are the body, tell me what part of the body do you find the so called authoritive ministry? They are not the head as Christ is the head.

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I’d like to address something. These “ministries” are often thought of as “offices”. But if you look closely… they are “ministries” of the body and for the body. In the first century church Christians didn’t have the concepts we have with “offices”. An Apostle was one that took the Gospel to a previously unreached region. A prophet was one anointed to speak the prophetic Word of the Lord and to deliver the Word of God anointedly. The Evangelist was any brother or sister who shared the Gospel rather it be by traveling church to church or just sharing in the market place. Those called to pastor spiritually mentored the flock, teaching Scripture, and building strong relational bonds. Teachers labored in the Word to teach doctrine. The average gathering was roughly 15 to 30 people in a house. Out of that 15 to 30 people you might have 10 gifted in the ministry of “pastor” and these mentored the flock together. All were called to be evangelists. You might have some feeling called to unreached regions. Two might specialize in doctrine. And three might be gifted in the gift of prophecy. There weren’t “offices” as we might think of them. It appears that “elders” were those who were spiritually mature in each gathering and that they worked together and in harmony, guiding and building up the flock. It was more like community… not a corporation. They called themselves Brother and Sister not as some form of “title”… but because they truly saw the church as a family. That being said, it was guided like a family.

Just had to drop that in here.

God bless.

"It was more like community… not a corporation". Right on. We've heard it MANY times, the Body is "an organism, not an organization".
Boy, you opened a huge area of discussion with this!

The 5 fold ministry is alive and well today and depending upon the gifting of God, some preachers can fill more than one ministry at a time, as meets the need.

[pastorrick1959]

shingledecker you opened a big can rightt here .... about holding more than one office .. i pastor and evangelise. dont go alot anymore but still some ..i do a fair share of teaching .... have been annonited by a true apostle to be an apostle ,,i aint really alot on titles myself ,, i just want to do whatever needs to be done when it neeeds to be done .. call me what you wil.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Shingledecker

...
The 5 fold ministry is alive and well today and depending upon the gifting of God, some preachers can fill more than one ministry at a time, as meets the need.

Well, we can find over 20 people called an apostle in the NT, and just one of these is a woman.

The following are listed as prophets in the New Testament:
Anna (Luke 2:36)
John the Baptist (Luke 7:28)
Agabus (Acts 11:27-28, Acts 21:10) and unnamed others (Acts 11:27-28)
Judas and Silas (Acts 15:32)

Only one person is called an evangelist in the New Testament. That is Philip (reference Acts 21:8)

The word “pastor” is not found in the King James New Testament. The plural form “pastors” is only found in Ephesians 4:11

As far as I can remember right now, only the Apostle Paul is called a teacher (reference 2 Timothy 1:11)

In Acts 13:1 it mentions certain people who are called “prophets and teachers.” These people are Paul, Barnabas, Simeon, Lucius, and Manaen. From the wording, I don’t know if all 5 of these were both “prophets and teachers” or if some were just prophets and some were just teachers, or if some fulfilled both offices.

[pastorrick1959]

very good post sam!