Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

[deadeye]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Yes, DA and I are evil. Dead-man, if you'd like, I'll forward you PM's from Admin and their heated disapproval of some things I've said, along with posts of mine they've deleted.

I said the "Gutter" thing because I honestly hadn't thought of what you were saying, but you thought it. It was a light-hearted jab at you, that you were the one thinking it, not me.

If it was offensive to you, I apologize. More than almost anyone on this forum, you've been brutal to me and there's almost never even a remotely kind word from you to me. That seems to be the way we talk. But I wouldn't want to offend or hurt you.

Hmmm....OK ..I will accept that apology and in return apologize for misinterpreting your meaning....

How 'bout a truce....for at least the next hour or so...

This is my new motto...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYLsyNBnE5M

[deadeye]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Well, I did add "When I bother to care", which you didn't highlight, and which is pretty much, never. I love what you, and a few others, dish out to me and I wear it like a badge of honor. There are some people that I value approval from. You? I value your disapproval. If there's ever an issue on which we disagree, I will immediately change my viewpoint!

The truce is over!!!


Jeeeest Keeeding....

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I think reading a clean, romance novel is better than viewing "other" men or women. I wouldn't want my husband to do that and he wouldn't do that.

All things are not equal though sis. Men and women respond to different things often the same way. Let's be real, most romance novels (even the cleaner ones) are a bit racy at the very least. Women are emotional. Words move you. Men aren’t as emotional, in fact men are visual. Actions and appearance move us. It’s the same with stimulation. The words of a novel often cause the very same stimulation for a woman as images do for a man. Yet we seem to give women a hesitant free pass on romance novels. Lol If a woman reads a racy romance novel and her husband glances at PB or a swimsuit magazine… it’s essentially the same thing. Even if the romance novel is essentially “clean”, the romance depicted is often unrealistic and can set unrealistic standards in the mind of a woman that her husband can’t live up to. Likewise, PB presents a physical beauty to a man that is unrealistic that their wives most often can’t live up to. Both will most likely walk away feeling cheated and unfulfilled.

If one needs “spice” don’t turn to romance novels or PB. The spice only lasts a short while and then insecurity and infidelity can set in. I’d recommend a book titled, “Red Hot Monogamy”. While I haven’t read all of it, the book has some excellent strategies to add some rather healthy “spice” to one’s marriage.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Azzan

Okay, I'll bite. I have been lurking on this forum for over a year, listening to the discussions on here. Of particular interest to me have been the discussions about gays.

You see, I am one. I am not here to push an agenda and I am not going to be drawn into debate. I am simply responding to NOW's request to hear from a person who is gay.

A little about me. I was raised in the UPC. My family is still in the UPC. In fact, I have children being raised in the UPC and my father holds a license with the UPC.

There has been a lot discussion on here about whether being gay is a choice. Believe me, I wish it were! It is not a choice for me and never has been. I cannot tell you how many hours were spent in prayer and days spent in fasting asking, nay pleading, that this condition be taken from me.

I so hated what I was that I have tried suicide twice and been locked up in mental wards. It's only been in the last 10 years or so that I decided that if I were going to survive that I find a way to accept and even love myself.

There was no way I could make my religious training and my "choice" to be gay co-exist with each other and so one had to go by the way side as there is no room for my kind.

So there you have it.

What would you like to know NOW?

Grace and peace to you Azzan.

I know that being straight wasn’t a choice for me, so I believe when you say that your disposition wasn’t a “choice” for you, you're being honest. I’m of the conviction that our flesh (including biology) is fallen and sinful. You clearly have a heavy cross to bare in your flesh and I’m not just saying that. We’re all fallen and broken and need the healing power of Jesus both in our bodies, minds, and spirits. Our entire person needs a touch from God.

Don’t listen to the haters. God loves you. God knows your struggles, temptations, pain, failures, and desire to be holy. God can judge between the thoughts and intents of the heart. I don’t know where you are in your spiritual journey… but I encourage you NOT to give up. Jesus is your lifesaver on this turbulent sea you’ve found yourself in. I also encourage you to live for God with as much as is within you. Like all of us, you’ll fall. You’ll have days of great victory and days of crashing defeat. It’s not maintaining the victory that will save you Azzan. It’s the grace of God operating in a person who is willing to get back up again. A righteous man falls seven times a day and rises up again. You see, no matter how often you fall in life or even in your mind… by getting back up with a spiritual brokenness and humility, you find righteousness before God. Giving up shouldn’t be considered an option. God loves you too much. If you knew how much God loved you… giving up wouldn’t be conceivable. Even when your deep in the depths of your personal sin, even in the very act… God loves you. God’s very essence is love. He cannot but love you.

I look at it like this. Our sin nature is like a spiritual disease and we all have a chronic case of it from birth. While the symptoms of that disease may not be present, we’re still diseased. There are days when the symptoms aren’t apparent and while in the moment of victory we feel healthy and free. But then there are days when the symptoms flare up and we find ourselves doing things or saying things we’d never have imagined that we’d do or say. Jesus is our great physician. The spiritual diet and exercise manual is the Bible. The preached Word and the Spirit of God are treatments. We all need regular treatments. That’s why gathering together for edification is so important. When symptoms of this sin nature flare up, that’s when we need treatment the most. You need a Christian brother or sister who knows your struggles, and who loves you, to fellowship with you, pray for you, administer forgiveness to you, and uphold you in prayer regularly. It’s best to find a church or gathering of believers that you feel safe with, who will acknowledge the sin but love you unconditionally in Christ Jesus. Who will weep with you when you fail and who will rejoice with you when you’re victorious. And you will need this friend for the rest of your life unless God heals you entirely. And when you fall, try not to involve others. That only compounds the situation.

Jesus is the friend of sinners. That includes both me and you. If you’ve confessed and repented of sin, have been baptized in Jesus name, filled with the Holy Ghost, and desire to be holy (though it’s often the toughest of battles), I count you as a fellow believer.

None of us will have perfection until that trumpet sounds. Don’t give up. And if you have, try to reconsider. Begin personal devotions in the privacy of your home. God believes in you, because he provided the grace to get you through.

Now, as has been said. Please feel free to join the topic.

[Azzan]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Wow. First, thank you for having the courage to tell some of your story and jumping in here. I hope you're not bashed like I've seen happen here on numerous other occasions. It's not unlike, at all, what I've heard many times from others in your demographic. In fact, your thoughts about "Choice", "Begging God to take it away", and suicide attempts are verbatim what I, and I'm sure others here, have heard before.

I'd like to know your thoughts about the military policy, your feelings about their motives, the fear of some here to shower in a military setting with gay men, and your feelings when you read things such as the one fellow's thoughts about homosexuality being a mental illness.

Thanks again for jumping in.

If I am bashed, it will not be because I am trying to force an agenda or my life style on anyone but because that person has an issue with homosexuals. My goal is help foster understanding by answering questions openly and honestly by sharing my story.

Yes, my story is not unique among gays - it is unfortunately all too common.

Does any reasonable adult think that someone would "choose" to be attracted to the same gender, especially when that person has been raised Pentecostal? Why would someone "choose" to go to hell?

As to the military policy, there is a lot of back story that I am afraid I couldn't squeeze into one single post so I will attempt to be succinct.

I do not and have not served in the military so I can only answer from personal experience as a civilian. I think the driving force behind allowing gay military personnel to "come out of the closet" so to speak is the need to be open and honest about who they are.

I have known since I was 11 that I was attracted to my gender. I have suppressed that desire and have tried to be the person that my parents, my church family, my siblings, my children, and society wanted me to be. Pretending to be something you are not requires great amounts of energy and time and that effort comes at a cost. It wears you down. You get tired of trying to be something you are not, of trying to "fit in". You get to the point where you become angry, even militant in some cases, because you are not free to be who you are.

It's no different in the military, perhaps even worse because as least as a civilian, I cannot be fired from my job because I happen to be gay.

As to the fears of some about showering with others who might be attracted to them, you can stop worrying about it. If you are going to a gym and using their shower facilities you can be sure that you are showering with a homosexual. We are everywhere.

Have you been accosted in a shower? I would bet not as we are very good at knowing who is family and who is not. We have to be. I am sure there are isolated events but by and large you can forget it, we're not going to try and convert you or come unto to you.

As to the opinion that homosexuality is a mental illness you may be surprised to learn that I can agree in part to this. It is my personal opinion that some gays are gay because of a troubled childhood. But I also believe that there are others who are born this way. I know I cannot convince you of that and rest assured you are never going to convince me otherwise because I know in my heart of hearts that I am one of the ones who cannot change - I had tried for MANY years.

I hope this helps NOW.

[Dedicated Mind]

azzan, have you been baptized in water and in spirit? has that helped any? some people are destined to live single lives. have you considered that as an option?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I can't locate the link. It was too many months back to remember.

What I do see is that a study was done. The stats are there on HIV and there are studies on this issue that don't even relate to the military. Look at the issue of the "down low". It's just a growing issue and a huge health risk.

So, logically, if we want a strong military, we need to avoid any weakness. Especially any weakness we know can be avoided. Because of that, I feel that being gay is not compatible with the military. It's a health risk all around and doesn't only include the financial end of it.

Your posts show how far we have come in our political correctness. We can't even view things with a moral objective anymore. We call it "homophobia" with no moral logic applied. We aren't allowed to apply Christian principles and I find that very sad. You call that living in a "bubble". Too sad. I remember a day when "divorce" was only a by-word. Now everything is prevalent and accepted.

Anyway, I rarely read or post much. I have so many good things going on in my life right now. I don't want to be distracted by negativity and rudeness, which isn't hard to find here. LOL!

Your posts show how stuck in the marred past we are. It's sad "PC" police are taking the lead in this and not believers. This isn't about defending morality. Sinners are sinners. Unbelievers are unbelievers. As a believer, my goal isn't to make bad people moral people, but to lead them to Jesus where they can believe and go from dead to alive. This moralism ........ is a disguised self-righteousness.

Rudeness? You complain about rudeness when you basically used the "Gay people will give us all aids" argument? Seriously, PO. This is unbecoming argumentation for you.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by coadie

Health is an issue

You do realize the Red Cross is bigoted when they don't take blood donors that have recent tattoos or gay?




Same in america.

I have the constitutional right to not accept a blood transfusion from a gay donor.

My College roomate was a lab tech before applying for Med school. They do bacterial tests on different body orrifices and know what dirty sex is.

And here goes, Coadie.

A blood donor agency that accepts blood to help other patients is doing so on the basis of health alone. Same for a bone marrow donor. If you don't have the right match it could be fatal. I am just appalled at your logic, Coadie.

Blood testing is one way to ensure "those queers don't give you aids." Good grief.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Aquila

There have always been gays in the military. Personally, I don't have much of an issue with it. A sergent I knew was gay. They are Americans and should have every right to sign up to defend our country. However, indecent acts or unwelcomed advances should be grounds for immediate dismissal.

As for "don't ask, don't tell"... I think it's a good idea. However, if a soldier is "outed" I don't think they should be dismissed merely on preference. I believe some indecent action or unwelcomed advance should be the grounds for dismissal.

Since I am wrestling with both positions, how does your reasonable position here respond to the idea of how same-sex attractions (openly) affect the atmosphere in cases we normally take for granted: foxholes, barracks, bunks, showers, etc. Is this wise to make a policy change at a time of war?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by coadie

There is right and there is wrong.

People pleasers are afraid to take a position and risk being unpopular.

Half right and half wrong is a personality defect.

Half pregnant?

Elijah asked why halt between 2 opinions. The problem with political correctness is that everything must be tolerated (except Christians that still have strong beleifs).

I can be a Christian with "strong beliefs" and still not be an advocate of intolerance and hate. Try again.