Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

[Azzan]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Wow. Thanks for sharing your heart.

I felt silly asking about the shower, but that seems to be the main objection early on in this thread. I think there are those that view gays as animals who jump everything that passes by and I think that stereotype is ridiculous. I'm sure you're familiar with the, "Be careful around him, he's gay" attitude.


Oh yes. But what some people do not understand is that there all sorts of gays just like there are all sorts of straights. We come in all sorts of shapes, colors and personalities. Unfortunetly we gays are our own worst enemy sometimes. Many people associate gays with what they see happening in the annual pride parades. I assure you that that picture is not at all accurate of a lot of the gay population. Some of us are even republicans! LOL


For example, a friend of ours who occasionally comes to visit, is gay. He's been a friend for decades. But when certain people found out he was staying in our home, the phone rang with warnings for us to be careful about letting our boys around him. I was shocked by it all...I'm a bit naive, I suppose.


Most gays are not attracted to children. Really. Just like most straights are not attracted to children. I have never met a gay who was intersted in children. The thought revolts me.


I don't say that to drudge up bad memories, but to call attention to the preconceived ideals many have about certain groups of people.

When you said, "You are very good at knowing who is family and who is not", do you mean your....slang term...."Gaydar"? I've been told by gay people they can "spot their own". I've been assured over and over not to worry about being "hit on", so I think a lot of guys that worry about another man jumping them are victims of a stereotype that has been passed around.


Yes, I was referring to "Gaydar". We can tell, usually with a single glance, who is gay, or family, and who is not. Trust me, if you are straight you usually have have nothing to worry about from us gays. Don't get me wrong, some of us may flirt but it would only be only if we can detect some ambivalence about you or we know you pretty well and it's done in a teasing tone and setting.

I, for one, would have no interest in hitting on a straight person. Just as you would have no interest in hitting on someone of your gender. Think about it.


I have never talked to a gay person who says they would choose what they are. I'm sure there are those who would, but I haven't met them yet. The bias can be ugly. Who would want that?


Yep. Now throw in being raised Pentecostal.


You don't need to convince me that you were born that way. I agree with you. And yes, there are many that have suffered sexual abuse as a child which can lead to a mental illness, but certainly, to issue a blanket statement that all gays are mentally ill would not be an accurate statement, true?


I believe that saying all gays are mentally ill is not an accurate statement. I know that some here will never belive it. They are entitled to their opinion.


Let me ask you this....you say it's not possible to change.


I never said change was impossible, I said that is was impossible for me to change.

Some ex-gays have said that they were successful in changing. Good for them. I sincerely hope they did and are happy. I suspect though that many of them have just repressed their desires and are masquerading as straight. As an example of what I speak, google John Paulk who was involved with Exodus and Focus on the Family. There are many, many more examples of ex-gays trying and failing to lead straight lives.

Do I believe change is possible? Yes, because all things are possible with God. But sometimes God says 'No'.


What about those who would suggest that it is possible to overcome while not totally changing? I'm speaking of those who would suggest that, just as a heterosexual married man may have temptations to sleep with another woman, he does not, and instead, continues to be with his wife. Do you feel that has any legitimacy?

Yes, I do feel that a gay can lead a straight life if they choose to do so and still remain attracted to the same gender. However, the human sex drive is extremely powerful and it has been my personal experience, and I find of many, many other gays as well, that sooner or later, that person will act upon their desire. How many times have we seen this played out in the tabloids and even among Pentecostal ranks?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Azzan

Comparing a gay male and a straight male working closely together with a straight male and a straight woman working together is comparing apples to oranges.

A gay is not going to approach, or flirt, with a straight.

Oh boy.... while I know that most gay people respect the known boundries, I've known straight guys who have been hit on. If they were reading this, they'd feel real insecure. lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by deadeye

Never???

I have seen plenty that were delivered from the depths of sin because they were Born Again of Water and Spirit,...

Does every one that is baptized in Jesus Name and filled with the Holy Ghost change?....no...but many do.

Its called becoming a New Creature in Christ.

I don't think most Christians KNOW what goes into delivering a person from this infirmity. It takes a healing touch on the entire person - body, soul, and spirit. It's a miracle actually. Those delivered should rejoice. Others shouldn't insist that such a healing can be attained through by sheer will.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by notofworks

So then, what about those who don't change.....at all, and continue to struggle for years with a particular sin or a variety of them? They didn't become a new creature?

My first Pastor used to say that we're treasures in earthen vessels.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sam

I would also like to ask about organizations like
Exodus International http://www.exodusinternational.org/
and Prodigal Ministries http://www.prodigal-ministries.com/
Are you familiar with them?
do you know people in them?
and, if so, do you think they are effective in what they do?

It is my understanding that these are non-denominational Christian ministries and not Oneness Pentecostal groups and therefore might be condemned by some Oneness Pentecostals.

Please don't give any information that you are uncomfortable with or that might reveal people's names or other information.

Jerry Armelli spoke at the Vineyard Church where I attended from 1992 to 2006. He and some folks from Prodigal Ministries also participated in a session of our Monday Night Growth and Healing.

Didn't the president of Exodus International "backslide" back into the lifestyle?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by deadeye

Never???

I have seen plenty that were delivered from the depths of sin because they were Born Again of Water and Spirit,...

Does every one that is baptized in Jesus Name and filled with the Holy Ghost change?....no...but many do.

Its called becoming a New Creature in Christ.

A couple of thoughts.
In my opinion, a person is born again (John 3:3, 1 John 5:1) and becomes a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) at the moment he/she by faith invites Jesus Christ to come in. At that moment all sin (past, present, and future) is forgiven and the person is saved from the penalty of his/her sins. Jesus Christ comes in as the Holy Spirit and is joined to that person's spirit (1 Corinthians 6:17). This salvation is separate from and independent from water baptism and Spirit baptism. The person is in Christ and is positionally dead, buried, risen again, and seated in the heavenlies with Christ. The change may be very dramatic visibly or it may be almost imperceptible but it happens. However, the old nature is still very much alive and will remain so until the mortal body becomes immortal and the corruptible body becomes incorruptible. The Christian life begins and continues throughout the rest of our life as a series of struggles/battles between the old man and the new man, between the flesh and the Spirit, between the new nature and the old nature. Some times we win a battle and some times we lose a battle, and some may give up for a while and then may start up again. But, I cannot judge someone by where they may appear to be in their struggle. That is between them and God. Philippians 1:6 speaks of God continuing to work in us until the day of Christ. God loves us very deeply and has invested very heavily in us and I can't condemn any of His children.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Hey, don't feel bad. I was baptized and filled with the HG and I'm still attracted to very beautiful women. I never chose to be straight. I've fought my attractions, but they don't seem to abate. I find myself catching a peak every so often and pray God forgives me. Sometimes a lovely young lady talks to me and I can't help but have a few thoughts fly through my mind that I repent of. More often, I'll see women walking around the airport where I work and catch myself "checking them out". Then I feel guilty and pray God forgives me. I don't chase women down and try to seduce them. But... I can't ditch my opposite gender attraction.

You pray for me... I'll pray for you.

and, in my opinion, a gay person can have that same experience.

[Azzan]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

But the attraction is not depending on it being reciprocated. A gay man is attracted to men (gay or straight). I'd imaging they wouldn't "come on" to straight men, but other men knowing they are essentially the same as a woman in the room with a man, may take that differently.

I am attracted to women. Even if it's one I don't have a chance in hell with.

A gay man can be attracted to a straight man for sure. But most gay men would never act upon it because as you said the attraction wouldn't be reciprocated. Hitting on a straight male would be a waste of time and enery because there is no chance of anything happening.

It's a completely different situation from a straight male hitting on a straight woman. Yes, the woman may rebuff the male but then she might not. See the difference? It's apples to oranges.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Azzan

Yes, I do feel that a gay can lead a straight life if they choose to do so and still remain attracted to the same gender. However, the human sex drive is extremely powerful and it has been my personal experience, and I find of many, many other gays as well, that sooner or later, that person will act upon their desire. How many times have we seen this played out in the tabloids and even among Pentecostal ranks?

and, in my opinion, no matter when or how often the person "acts upon their desire" there is forgiveness, restoration, and healing available.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Didn't the president of Exodus International "backslide" back into the lifestyle?

I don't know