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  #381  
Old 10-20-2010, 03:41 PM
Jeffrey Jeffrey is offline
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Re: Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

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Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind View Post
Azzan, I hope you stick around and comment on other threads as well, not just this one. You are welcome in my book.
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  #382  
Old 10-20-2010, 03:45 PM
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Azzan Azzan is offline
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Re: Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
I don't think anyone questions their ability to kill people, Aquila

And when it's open, would there be more of an issue?

Also, I don't think the concern is crazy gay sex going on in foxholes. I think the issue is other men being comfortable sharing a foxhole or intimate quarters with a gay man.
Don't mean to step on your toes here, Jeffery, but I think only someone who has served time in a foxhole can answer this one. I don't consider myself qualified to answer as I have never spent time on a battle field.
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  #383  
Old 10-20-2010, 03:55 PM
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BeenThinkin BeenThinkin is offline
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Re: Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

Greetings Azzan. Please let me state up front that I in no way am approaching this subject in a judging way. I have a young man in my church who has just "come out" and he has asked to talk to me. I want to help him and not kill him spiritually.

How do you approach the following scriptures from Romans 1? And I'm very aware of what Romans 2:1 says... " 2:1* ¶ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things." I AM NOT JUDGING YOU.... Just interested in your response.

But here are the scriptures I'm asking you about, particularly the bolded part.

Romans 1:19* ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20* For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21* Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22* Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23* And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24* Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25* Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26* For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27* And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28* And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29* Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30* Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31* Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32* Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

How do you explain what Paul was talking about?

Been Thinkin
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  #384  
Old 10-20-2010, 03:57 PM
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Esther Esther is offline
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Re: Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

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Originally Posted by Azzan View Post
If I am bashed, it will not be because I am trying to force an agenda or my life style on anyone but because that person has an issue with homosexuals. My goal is help foster understanding by answering questions openly and honestly by sharing my story.

Yes, my story is not unique among gays - it is unfortunately all too common.

Does any reasonable adult think that someone would "choose" to be attracted to the same gender, especially when that person has been raised Pentecostal? Why would someone "choose" to go to hell?

As to the military policy, there is a lot of back story that I am afraid I couldn't squeeze into one single post so I will attempt to be succinct.

I do not and have not served in the military so I can only answer from personal experience as a civilian. I think the driving force behind allowing gay military personnel to "come out of the closet" so to speak is the need to be open and honest about who they are.

I have known since I was 11 that I was attracted to my gender. I have suppressed that desire and have tried to be the person that my parents, my church family, my siblings, my children, and society wanted me to be. Pretending to be something you are not requires great amounts of energy and time and that effort comes at a cost. It wears you down. You get tired of trying to be something you are not, of trying to "fit in". You get to the point where you become angry, even militant in some cases, because you are not free to be who you are.

It's no different in the military, perhaps even worse because as least as a civilian, I cannot be fired from my job because I happen to be gay.

As to the fears of some about showering with others who might be attracted to them, you can stop worrying about it. If you are going to a gym and using their shower facilities you can be sure that you are showering with a homosexual. We are everywhere.

Have you been accosted in a shower? I would bet not as we are very good at knowing who is family and who is not. We have to be. I am sure there are isolated events but by and large you can forget it, we're not going to try and convert you or come unto to you.

As to the opinion that homosexuality is a mental illness you may be surprised to learn that I can agree in part to this. It is my personal opinion that some gays are gay because of a troubled childhood. But I also believe that there are others who are born this way. I know I cannot convince you of that and rest assured you are never going to convince me otherwise because I know in my heart of hearts that I am one of the ones who cannot change - I had tried for MANY years.

I hope this helps NOW.
I believe this is a lie from satan making people believe they could be born as an homosexual. Why would a God that considers homosexuality as an abomination, cause someone to be born into that lifestyle? That doesn't make sense.

I do believe you when you say this has been a battle for you. I know someone that has battled it and lost the battle more than once.

I do believe prayer and fasting is what it takes to break this yoke of bondage and I know you said you have gone that route. Don't know how long you fasted and it isn't important for me to know. I know Jesus told His disciples that some spirits only come out by prayer and fasting.

I believe there are some spirits stronger than others, and I truly believe that the spirit of homosexuality is one if not the strongest spirit I have seen to be conquered.
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  #385  
Old 10-20-2010, 04:25 PM
Jeffrey Jeffrey is offline
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Re: Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

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Originally Posted by Azzan View Post
Don't mean to step on your toes here, Jeffery, but I think only someone who has served time in a foxhole can answer this one. I don't consider myself qualified to answer as I have never spent time on a battle field.
Do I have to experience sleeping in Army barracks to fully understand the concerns as well? Really?

If we are asking current enlistments, there opinions are, in a high percentage, supportive of DADT.
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  #386  
Old 10-20-2010, 04:27 PM
Jeffrey Jeffrey is offline
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Re: Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

Azzan - just to catch up with the thread, are you a believer in Jesus Christ as the Son of God? Do you believe He is good, great and perfect? Do you believe His words are true? Do you believe He provides for our needs? Are you a believer?

I realize you were raised in Pentecost, but I've known plenty that were raised in Pentecost that were unfortunately burned early on, or were otherwise distracted from believing in Jesus (it became more about the other non-sense that goes on).

If you are a believer, I'd know better how to interact with you.
If you are not, that will also be helpful.

Blessings,Jeffrey.
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  #387  
Old 10-20-2010, 04:28 PM
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Azzan Azzan is offline
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Re: Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

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Originally Posted by Sam View Post
I would also like to ask about organizations like
Exodus International http://www.exodusinternational.org/
and Prodigal Ministries http://www.prodigal-ministries.com/
Are you familiar with them?
do you know people in them?
and, if so, do you think they are effective in what they do?

It is my understanding that these are non-denominational Christian ministries and not Oneness Pentecostal groups and therefore might be condemned by some Oneness Pentecostals.

Please don't give any information that you are uncomfortable with or that might reveal people's names or other information.

Jerry Armelli spoke at the Vineyard Church where I attended from 1992 to 2006. He and some folks from Prodigal Ministries also participated in a session of our Monday Night Growth and Healing.
Is this post directed at me?
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  #388  
Old 10-20-2010, 04:31 PM
Jeffrey Jeffrey is offline
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Re: Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

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Originally Posted by Esther View Post
I believe this is a lie from satan making people believe they could be born as an homosexual. Why would a God that considers homosexuality as an abomination, cause someone to be born into that lifestyle? That doesn't make sense.

I do believe you when you say this has been a battle for you. I know someone that has battled it and lost the battle more than once.

I do believe prayer and fasting is what it takes to break this yoke of bondage and I know you said you have gone that route. Don't know how long you fasted and it isn't important for me to know. I know Jesus told His disciples that some spirits only come out by prayer and fasting.

I believe there are some spirits stronger than others, and I truly believe that the spirit of homosexuality is one if not the strongest spirit I have seen to be conquered.
I realize my contributions on this thread thus far have been all over the map. Just trying to flex to all the possible positions out there. So, some questions regarding your post.

Do you believe mankind is fallen/broken and not fully restored until the "Resurrection of the dead (with Christ)?" Or do you believe we are fully restored upon regeneration? I have a hard time believing the latter, since there remains sickness, death, proclivity to sin, etc... not to mention Paul's "already/not yet" position stated in his Epistles. We are restored, but not yet fully.

Does Scriptures tell us that we were "born in sin and shaped in iniquity?" Does God allow that?

Why do you insist using the word "spirits" to suggest that this particular sin is a demonic Spirit (not that I disagree)? But would you describe all lies we buy that are sins to be demonically influenced or just homosexuality?
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  #389  
Old 10-20-2010, 05:11 PM
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Azzan Azzan is offline
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Re: Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
But even though I wouldn't act upon a desire for a woman where I had no chance, does that make that woman any more comfortable by share intimate living quarters or showers with her?

I don't think it's so much apples and oranges. If you insist in it, then let's just talk about the apple.
Let me try another tack then.

We know gays serve in the military today. Thus I think we can conclude that straight service men and women are living in close contact with gays today without knowing it because of DADT, right? If DADT is lifted, what changes?
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  #390  
Old 10-20-2010, 05:22 PM
Jeffrey Jeffrey is offline
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Re: Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

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Let me try another tack then.

We know gays serve in the military today. Thus I think we can conclude that straight service men and women are living in close contact with gays today without knowing it because of DADT, right? If DADT is lifted, what changes?

That's exactly what changes: Knowing it!

And someone would argue the open flood gates would cause more suspicion than anything.

Let me just say, in case you didn't see my posts earlier, I'm middle-of-the-road on DADT. I think it's more about timing, and while we are at war may not be the best timing... but a secondary concern is how the bunking/intimate scenarios are.

Does anyone know when women were allowed in combat roles? How have they changed procedures for that? Anyone that is familiar?
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