Homosexuality ... How do the "Advocates" deal...

[TJJJ]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Regarding 1 Corinthians (this is why I didn't want to get into that here, risking a HUGE tangent), I think 11:1 is more related to Chapter 10 and that 11:2 is where the Chapter (new thought, or continuing thought, begins).

After prohibiting Corinthians from becoming involved in pagan worship, Paul not turns to address three items of abuse in their own assemblies: a concern related to women's head coverings or hairstyles when praying or prophesying; the abuse of the poor at the Lord's Table; and the abuse of speaking in tongues in the assembly (Chps 12-14). This topic, in Chapter 11, is the only one that begins "now about," indicating it is likely something that was mentioned in their letter to Paul. 1 Corinthians 11:2-14 seem to be divided into 3 logical arguments that Paul makes.

vv3-6 Paul uses a metaphorical usage of the word "head" (before later employing a more literal use regarding "coverings" on their head).

Fee argues that the "head" metaphor is not hierarchical, setting up an authority structure (in fact, the only usage of exousia refers to the woman's own authority in v10). The metaphor for head to mean "chief" or "person of highest rank" is rare in Greek literature. Paul's probably use of "head" here is as "source" or "source of life." Paul's concern is not hierarchical, but relational.

That said, I do believe that Paul here, is supporting social order and customs based on the concept of "life source."

No, in all my friendships with unbelievers in the city where I live (that are homosexual), I have not been aware of any particular domestic violence problem unique to homosexuals... or even a problem in general. So we are anecdotal vs. anecdotal. You also mentioned many homosexuals being former Pentecostals? Could this be because those are who you know and affiliated with (you yourself being a Pentecostal) and that a guy who was a tradesman, may know more homosexuals that are tradesmen? This is the danger of either of us forming conclusions based on anecdotal evidence.

You seem to be implying that because homosexuals break God's order of "headship" (not entirely sure what you mean), that there is more havoc in their homes. I think I can find other ways to suggest homosexual homes break God's design and purposes for us to live full and healthy lives. But I think it's a stretch to say they have relational problems above and beyond what other romantic partners have.

Many homosexuals assume roles prior to going into relationships. It's not like "who's going to be the man or woman", but rather, and they have their own language for this, they go by personality. Some are more mild, less decisive and they defer to the more decisive and aggressive one.

I would thnk the biggest instances of "domestic violence" among homosexuals is perpetrated by hateful heterosexuals.

Your point is made by advocacy groups like this:
http://fathersforlife.org/gay_issues/gay_dv.htm
http://www.lambda.org/DV_background.htm

Of course, they reason and argue for different factors (read the second link)

I want to be very clear on this my friend. I am not coming from the opinion of any advocacy groups. Please do not make the same assumption mistake that you might be accusing others of.

I am telling my own experiences in counseling and ministry. That is all. I do realize that my scope is much narrower than any nationwide polls and etc, but that is the reason for this thread. I will read those links and comment on them after.

Yes, most that I counsel come from a religious viewpoint or environment. That is the realm of my experience. I am trying to not fall into the mindset that everything is set in stone. I have been trying to give my experiences to far in this arena.

I realize that all groups have their problems but I am really trying to stay on course here and address what I have observed, with my own experience, in the limited contact with the homosexual community.

Please forgive me if I am offending, I am not trying to.

God Bless All

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by coadie

Nicolosi is NARTH Dobson is Focus on the Family and now retired. Dr Dobson has had attacks and death threats from the gays for several decades.

Hasn't EVERY MAJOR PUBLIC OFFICIAL who speaks on sensitive issues had death threats?

Let's ask women who have had abortions.... let's ask civil rights leaders.... cut the usual .........

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

I want to be very clear on this my friend. I am not coming from the opinion of any advocacy groups. Please do not make the same assumption mistake that you might be accusing others of.

I am telling my own experiences in counseling and ministry. That is all. I do realize that my scope is much narrower than any nationwide polls and etc, but that is the reason for this thread. I will read those links and comment on them after. Yes, most that I counsel come from a religious viewpoint or environment. That is the realm of my experience. I am trying to not fall into the mindset that everything is set in stone. I have been trying to give mys experiences to far in this arena.

I realize that all groups have their problems but I am really trying to stay on course here and address what I have observed, with my own experience, in the limited contact with the homosexual community.

Please forgive me if I am offending, I am not trying to.

God Bless All

I'm not sure why you keep feeling like your offending. Am I missing something? What is giving you that notion?

I have no idea what you mean about the advocacy clarification either. I sincerely have no idea.

I'm interacting with your post and challenging what I think are untrue theories... in other areas that may be true, I'm just asking questions of what you are presenting.

I appreciate your honesty.... I'm not attacking you. If you feel that way, I apologize. Realizing you speak from your experience, I'm arguing that experiences are not an end-all, which apparently you understand as you've written above.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

Now that is interesting. I will have to check their resources. Do you have a link?

I believe that if we are going to help everyone, or do our best, that we must understand that there are more ingredients in these situations than just saying, Homosexuals, throw them away.

More and more I am seeing that the home structure is of utmost importance in the formation of men and women. The home discipline and home authority, within the realm of righteousness and truth, is more important than the traditional church scene.

Traditional Christianity had handed the responsibility of the family off to the church expecting the church to take care of what should be take care of in the home.

God help us all.

I could easily write several chapters on this. I could borrow from several Psychologists that were noted for theories and stages of development or go the old route and view it from the long old and no longer considered Freudian Psychoanalytic views.

TJJ, To slightly change the subject. Some of Psychiatry today goes back to Freud. Some of what we attribute to Sigmund freud was actually from daughter Anna who he was tight with.
What is so ironic is that Anna became gay. She rejected her mom and emulated her daddy. Mom had raised Anna and kept a distant cold relationship with her.

Anna
Freud started counseling a recent widow in another country and her children. After the death of the dad, Anna moved in shacked up and played surrogate dad. Of course we never hook up with patients. Anna played the role of the head of the household that left.

Mens and womens ministries are packed with adults that have wounded spirits from childhood.

[TJJJ]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Well, of course, we don't believe that it's possible to be a disciple of Jesus and to continue in living as a homosexual. That's an easy one. If the reasoning by God is connected to headship or not though, I think you have your argument cut out for you. One with maybe not enough dots to connect.

I didn't need Merriam. I just wanted to clarify what YOU meant. We often use terms or phrases with something specific in mind.

Socialite, I believe I understand where you are coming from now. Correct me if I am wrong.

I do believe that there are some here, on this forum, that do believe that they are Christian, Apostolics, and yet have homosexual tendencies. Maybe even living in a relationship of that sort. What you just wrote just blew them out of the water.

You do not have a stand for homosexuality as much as you and I differ on what I Cor 11 means, headship or hair. Am I right?

As far as Webster's, I was just trying to clarify my position regarding advocate.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by coadie

I could easily write several chapters on this. I could borrow from several Psychologists that were noted for theories and stages of development or go the old route and view it from the long old and no longer considered Freudian Psychoanalytic views.

TJJ, To slightly change the subject. Some of Psychiatry today goes back to Freud. Some of what we attribute to Sigmund freud was actually from daughter Anna who he was tight with.
What is so ironic is that Anna became gay. She rejected her mom and emulated her daddy. Mom had raised Anna and kept a distant cold relationship with her.

Anna
Freud started counseling a recent widow in another country and her children. After the death of the dad, Anna moved in shacked up and played surrogate dad. Of course we never hook up with patients. Anna played the role of the head of the household that left.

Mens and womens ministries are packed with adults that have wounded spirits from childhood.

I could easily write several chapters on this.

Thanks for sparing us!

So you operate on penises as a Medical Doctor, perform psychiatric evaluations, are an insider at the White House, a world-traveling missionary and are the "most educated" person on AFF. Are you related to the Dos Equis man?

All your nonsense on Sigmund Freud is baffoonary. I can name you Christian Psychologist after Christian Psychologist, who while discarding much of what Freud may believe outside of science, fully accept and attest to several of his theories inside science. The rest of your National Enquirer style arguments are bologna.

[TJJJ]

Originally Posted by Socialite

I'm not sure why you keep feeling like your offending. Am I missing something? What is giving you that notion?

I have no idea what you mean about the advocacy clarification either. I sincerely have no idea.

I'm interacting with your post and challenging what I think are untrue theories... in other areas that may be true, I'm just asking questions of what you are presenting.

I appreciate your honesty.... I'm not attacking you. If you feel that way, I apologize. Realizing you speak from your experience, I'm arguing that experiences are not an end-all, which apparently you understand as you've written above.

Listen, I am walking like on egg shells regarding this issue as I would like to involve others who have posted on other threads. I have a habit of being onery and abrasive! Thus my caution.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

Socialite, I believe I understand where you are coming from now. Correct me if I am wrong.

I do believe that there are some here, on this forum, that do believe that they are Christian, Apostolics, and yet have homosexual tendencies. Maybe even living in a relationship of that sort. What you just wrote just blew them out of the water.

You do not have a stand for homosexuality as much as you and I differ on what I Cor 11 means, headship or hair. Am I right?

As far as Webster's, I was just trying to clarify my position regarding advocate.

I'm not sure if there are people like that on AFF or not. I wasn't aware.

As far as tendencies.... that's a different argument. Living as a disciple may mean they still have tendencies, but those tendencies now become a cross they carry until and if ever Jesus chooses to heal them.

Yes, we definitely agree on the issue of homosexuality being a sin.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

Listen, I am walking like on egg shells regarding this issue as I would like to involve others who have posted on other threads. I have a habit of being onery and abrasive! Thus my caution.

http://www.narth.com/docs/makesclaims.html

You posited ideas about headship. Ok Very good. Here is an article that discusses research that claims biblical headship is an erroneous concept. The research is bad by the way.

http://www.narth.com/docs/makesclaims.html

The National Longitudinal Lesbian Family Study (NLLFS) published by American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) offers the following conclusion: "Adolescents who have been reared in lesbian-mother families since birth demonstrate healthy psychological adjustment (p. 28)."

Arguments against headship include the patriarchal system is both religious and wicked.

Implied, though not stated, is the notion that fathers are not necessary or important for the healthy development of children. This implication is a throwback to an article published in the American Psychologist in 1999 titled "Deconstructing the Essential Father." Like the authors of the American Psychologist article, Gartrell and Bos are on record as activists seeking public support for homosexual parenting

The problems inherent in any self-report study. The lesbian mothers' own reports that their children were well-adjusted were accepted by the study's authors uncritical

[TJJJ]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Thanks for sparing us!

So you operate on penises as a Medical Doctor, perform psychiatric evaluations, are an insider at the White House, a world-traveling missionary and are the "most educated" person on AFF. Are you related to the Dos Equis man?
All your nonsense on Sigmund Freud is baffoonary. I can name you Christian Psychologist after Christian Psychologist, who while discarding much of what Freud may believe outside of science, fully accept and attest to several of his theories inside science. The rest of your National Enquirer style arguments are bologna.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh

It took me a little bit of searching to reference this point!!!!


Hahahhahahahaha

$10.00 plus all the tips you want to keep for performing circumcisions!!!!