Speaking In Tongues Does Not Equal Salvation.

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by Barb

So, what then is conversion?

Peter said, Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out (Acts 3:19).

The Strong's Dictionary reads that repent means to be sorry, while converted means to turn around or reverse.

IMO, one can be genuinely contrite for a lot of reasons...

A song convicts them and they are moved to repentance. A message is so moving as to bring them to an altar.

They are sincerely sorry and regret the sin, thus they confess their sin to the Lord and repent.

But without a true conversion of the heart and mind...a total turn around and desire to never return to the place they were before, they will return to it.

"repent" does infer more than "just" being sorry but also infers action in making a change in the direction of one's life.

from the merriam-webster.com dictionary:

"1 : to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life"

Someone we know who spent time in England while in the military noticed that when the Brittish soldiers were marching in formation and the drill instructer wanted them to go in the opposition direction they would give the command "REPENT !", which they understood meant to do an 180 degree turn and go in the opposite direction.

the word "converted" from merriam-webster.com includes:

"1 a : to bring over from one belief, view, or party to another"

So it would seem to repent and be converted would mean to be sorry enough for your sins that you take action in making a change in your life's direction from a life of sin, and also change (convert) your belief from how you used to believe to the gospel truth, and of course if you really believe the truth you will also obey the truth and be baptized in Jesus name and seek to receive the Holy Ghost.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by BroGary

"repent" does infer more than "just" being sorry but also infers action in making a change in the direction of one's life.

from the merriam-webster.com dictionary:

"1 : to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life"

Someone we know who spent time in England while in the military noticed that when the Brittish soldiers were marching in formation and the drill instructer wanted them to go in the opposition direction they would give the command "REPENT !", which they understood meant to do an 180 degree turn and go in the opposite direction.

the word "converted" from merriam-webster.com includes:

"1 a : to bring over from one belief, view, or party to another"

So it would seem to repent and be converted would mean to be sorry enough for your sins that you take action in making a change in your life's direction from a life of sin, and also change (convert) your belief from how you used to believe to the gospel truth, and of course if you really believe the truth you will also obey the truth and be baptized in Jesus name and seek to receive the Holy Ghost.

That's an interesting hermeneutic there, Gary ... using Webster's and the KJV to interpret scriptural intent ... except Peter didn't use the word "converted" in our modern evangelical fundamentalist sense ....

but rather in the Hebraic tradition ... where there are no exclamation points, uses a redundancy when he emphatically re-states, "turning" / "returning" with the synonym epistrayate (transitively to turn to) in this paranthetical.

Other translations do more accurate justice to the Greek text.

19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, (NIV)


19 “Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; (NASB)


The repentance and turning through belief and reliance on Him for our salvation ... washes sins ... not a properly administered baptism ...

Peter clarifying his message at Pentecost as to what remits/forgives sin .. eliminating any doubt as to his intent regarding "eis" in Acts 2:38

It is this reality and the term aphesis being accurately translated as forgiveness not just remitted that made some UPCI preachers pass a pro-KJV resolution in the 1950's and reject "revised" editions.

Truth scares some folks if it doesn't fit their man-made doctrinal boxes.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

But of those 20 (barring the initial outpouring) only 2 mention that they spoke with tongues.

That seems like mighty flimsy evidence that this is an absolute initial evidence without which one has not received the Holy Ghost.

yes.
--Acts 2:1-4 tongues are mentioned when about 1/4 of the early church (120 out of 500 members ref 1 Corinthians 15:6) were baptized in the Spirit. Some believe this is when those 120 got saved or born again. Others believe they had already been saved or born again as disciples/followers of Jesus and this was an empowering/filling/baptizing experience in the Holy Spirit.

--Acts 8:5-25 winter AD 31/32 Philip went to Samaria and preached Christ. People believed (verse 12) were saved (received the Word verse 14) and were baptized (verses 15-16) but they had not received/been baptized in the Spirit. Peter and John made the the 40 mile trip from Jerusalem and laid their hands on them and ministered the HGB (Holy Ghost Baptism) to them. Verse 17 says they were laying their hands on them and they were receiving (making room for or opening up to) the Holy Spirit. It does not say they spoke with tongues but I think it is implied for two reasons:
1. Simeon saw something happen when they were baptized in the Spirit. He had seen healings, exorcisms, salvations, and great joy but this was something else. It COULD HAVE BEEN speaking with tongues.
2. When Simon tried to buy the gift of ministering the HGB, Peter said "To hell with you and your money. You thought you could buy the gift of God with money. You have no part nor lot in this utterance" (verses 18-21). The KJV says "matter" there but the same word is translated "utterance" in 1 Corinthians 1:5 where it is speaking about the gifts of the Spirit in the Corinthian churc.

--Acts 8:26-40 records the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch and his subsequent water baptism and the Spirit coming upon him. Again, no tongues is mentioned so we can't use this as an argument for or against tongues. You know the story. The eunuch was reading Isaiah chapter 53. Philip preached Christ from that scripture. They came to some water -probably the wadi el-Hesi north of Gaza and the eunuch requested baptism. Philip first wanted to be sure he was saved so he said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." The eunuch made a confession of faith (like Romans 10:9-13) so Philip stopped the chariot so the man could be baptized. Note, that confession of faith is not in some versions of the Bible. Verses 38-40 in some manuscripts read: "So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord fell on the eunuch and the Angel of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus. And passing through, he preached in all the cities till he came to Caesarea." Again, nothing proven about whether or not tongues happened.

--Acts 9:1-20 records the conversion of Saul. Traditional date for this is January 25, AD 32. Some of us believe that Saul was converted there on the road to Damascus when he realized Jesus was alive and he called Him Lord and asked what he should do. Three days later Ananias came to him on Straight street so that he could receive his sight and be filled with the Holy Ghost. We read that Ananias laid his hands on him and we assume that is when and where he did receive his sight and receive the Holy Ghost Baptism. Again, no word about tongues although we know that 30 some years later Paul told the Corinthian church that he spoke with tongues more than all of them.

--Acts 10, AD 38, Cornelius and others heard the Word, believed, and the Holy Spirit fell upon them. It is recorded that they spoke with tongues and that is how Peter and the rest of them knew that the Gentiles had been Spirit filled. Later, Peter referred to this tongues speaking experience as a baptism in the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16-17). Actually, Peter said that these Gentiles had received the same experience he and others had received even though there was no mention of wind or tongues of fire in Acts 10, 11.

--Acts 19:1-7, October AD 53, a group of Baptist disciples who had not heard about the Holy Ghost found out that there was more for them than what they had received. Paul explained what Jesus did, then baptized them in water, and then laid his hands upon them and the Spirit came upon them It is recorded that they spoke with tongues and prophesied. We don't know if all 12 did both --spoke with tongues and prophesied-- or if some spoke with tongues and some prophesied. But speaking with tongues is mentioned.

Agreed, this is not a lot of witnesses but, based on this, some of us have come to the following conclusions:
1. There is a definite experience known as
the Holy Ghost Baptism
receiving the Holy Spirit
the Spirit coming upon
the Sprirt falling upon
2. This experience is subsequent to conversion
3. Speaking with tongues accompanies the experience

Others reading the same accounts may not come to the same conclusions. We need to respect one another's beliefs on this. I know good Christian people who do not speak with tongues.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by DAII

That's an interesting hermeneutic there, Gary ... using Webster's and the KJV to interpret scriptural intent ... except Peter didn't use the word "converted" in our modern evangelical fundamentalist sense ....

but rather in the Hebraic tradition ... where there are no exclamation points, emphatically re-states, "turning" / "returning" with the synonym epistrayate , transitively to turn to, in this paranthetical.

Other translations do more accurate justice to the Greek text.

19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, (NIV)


19 “Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; (NASB)


The repentance and turning through belief and reliance on Him for our salvation ... washes sins ... not a properly administered baptism ...

Peter clarifying his message at Pentecost as to what remits/forgives sin .. eliminating any doubt as to his intent regarding "eis" in Acts 2:38

It is this reality and the term aphesis being accurately translated as forgiveness not just remitted that made some UPCI preachers pass a pro-KJV resolution in the 1950's and reject "revised" editions.

Truth scares some folks if it doesn't fit their man-made doctrinal boxes.

Thanks, Dan'l

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by DAII

That's an interesting hermeneutic there, Gary ... using Webster's and the KJV to interpret scriptural intent ... except Peter didn't use the word "converted" in our modern evangelical fundamentalist sense ....

but rather in the Hebraic tradition ... where there are no exclamation points, uses a redundancy when he emphatically re-states, "turning" / "returning" with the synonym epistrayate (transitively to turn to) in this paranthetical.

Other translations do more accurate justice to the Greek text.

19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, (NIV)


19 “Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; (NASB)


The repentance and turning through belief and reliance on Him for our salvation ... washes sins ... not a properly administered baptism ...

Peter clarifying his message at Pentecost as to what remits/forgives sin .. eliminating any doubt as to his intent regarding "eis" in Acts 2:38

It is this reality and the term aphesis being accurately translated as forgiveness not just remitted that made some UPCI preachers pass a pro-KJV resolution in the 1950's and reject "revised" editions.

Truth scares some folks if it doesn't fit their man-made doctrinal boxes.

Sorry, but you can't simply ignore all the other verses that show that just believing and repentence alone is not enough to make Heaven.

As I mentioned in another discussion:

The Bible is clear that salvation takes more than JUST believing.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Other scriptures show repentance is a MUST.
Other scriptures show receiving the Holy Ghost is a MUST.
Other scriptures show enduring faithful to the end is a MUST.

IF a person JUST believes, but does not also repent, get baptized in Jesus name, receive the Holy Ghost, and endure faithful to the end, they will not be saved.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by BroGary

Sorry, but you can't simply ignore all the other verses that show that just believing and repentence alone is not enough to make Heaven.

As I mentioned in another discussion:

The Bible is clear that salvation takes more than JUST believing.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Other scriptures show repentance is a MUST.
Other scriptures show receiving the Holy Ghost is a MUST.
Other scriptures show enduring faithful to the end is a MUST.

IF a person JUST believes, but does not also repent, get baptized in Jesus name, receive the Holy Ghost, and endure faithful to the end, they will not be saved.

There a plethora of musts in the God's Word ... Gary. Like I must love my neighbor ... but does this cause salvation or the New Birth ... or is it a result of salvation and the New Birth?

Repentant believers will get baptized, Gary. If not you never believed. The rest of Christianity believes and preaches this. While unbelief of course will mean that baptism and the other steps born again believers take ... will never happen ... therefore, they are condemned. (Mark 16:16)

Catholics, Mormons, Church of Christ and some OPs preach that baptism is needed for remission/forgiveness of sin. While you also believe that salvation and forgiveness hangs in the balance based on the baptizer getting the right formula said at baptism.

Yet the Bible does not teach this ... there is no biblical teaching that states such a thing. Doing something in His name ... does not mean necessarily dictate "proper verbalization" ... yet throughout Scripture ... in OTHER PLACES like the OT also .. it has always meant doing so in the power and authority of the Lord.

The doctrines of necessary invocation and glossalia to OBTAIN SALVATION is where you fall off the apostolic map, doctrinally.

Logically, also, if you believe that Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost ... then you should have no problems with a triune formula said at baptism because it's understood the baptism authorized (Mat. 28) is in the Lord's name ... knowing ... like all Christians that salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ.

[Falla39]

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Falla39

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Falla39

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Falla39

AMEN

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by DAII

There a plethora of musts in the God's Word ... Gary. Like I must love my neighbor ... but does this cause salvation or the New Birth ... or is it a result of salvation and the New Birth?

Repentant believers will get baptized, Gary. If not you never believed. The rest of Christianity believes and preaches this. While unbelief of course will mean that baptism and the other steps born again believers take ... will never happen ... therefore, they are condemned. (Mark 16:16)

Catholics, Mormons, Church of Christ and some OPs preach that baptism is needed for remission/forgiveness of sin. While you also believe that salvation and forgiveness hangs in the balance based on the baptizer getting the right formula said at baptism.

Yet the Bible does not teach this ... there is no biblical teaching that states such a thing. Doing something in His name ... does not mean necessarily dictate "proper verbalization" ... yet throughout Scripture ... in OTHER PLACES like the OT also .. it has always meant doing so in the power and authority of the Lord.

The doctrines of necessary invocation and glossalia to OBTAIN SALVATION is where you fall off the apostolic map, doctrinally.

Logically, also, if you believe that Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost ... then you should have no problems with a triune formula said at baptism because it's understood the baptism authorized (Mat. 28) is in the Lord's name ... knowing ... like all Christians that salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ.

Sorry, but is says AND is baptized, not those who believe will likely get baptized.

The Bible says we must not only believe the gospel, but we must OBEY the gospel, obedience REQUIRES action on our part.

Jesus even said being born of water and of the Spirit was a MUST.

So I stand firm by these truths that a person MUST believe, repent, be baptized in JESUS name, receive the Holy Ghost and endure faithful to the end to make Heaven.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by BroGary

Sorry, but is says AND is baptized, not those who believe will likely get baptized.

The Bible says we must not only believe the gospel, but we must OBEY the gospel, obedience REQUIRES action on our part.

Jesus even said being born of water and of the Spirit was a MUST.

So I stand firm by these truths that a person MUST believe, repent, be baptized in JESUS name, receive the Holy Ghost and endure faithful to the end to make Heaven.

Stand firm bro in your extrabiblical religious traditions ... and be prepared to greet untold millions of believers who obeyed the Gospel by trusting in Christ when we get to heaven ...

We love and appreciate you even if the Truth alludes you ... even if you would add to the Gospel and Christ's conversation with Nicodemus about being born from above ....