Sinful housework

[Luke]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Luke,

How does the enemy fight you then, if not through the flesh?

Do you fight a literal satan? are you out there with a sword fighting against a literal physically bodied enemy? I guess that is where the image of the red hooded, fork-wielding scary red demon picture comes from.

Peter pictured him as a raging lion seeking to and fro... have you ever been attacked by a literal raging satanic lion? Again.... I think not....

Or, does satan manifest himself to us through the flesh? The attack from the wicked one comes through our flesh, and our mind. Where does the greatest battle rage in your life... your mind!

So yes, the enemy attacks us through our mind, and our flesh, and that is where the battle rages.

So when Jesus was tempted while on earth did He have a flesh nature to be tempted through as you put it?

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Luke

So when Jesus was tempted while on earth did He have a flesh nature to be tempted through as you put it?

Jesus was perfect, and sinless, with a human nature, but yet he was also God. We are told he was tempted in all points as we are, but without sin. He was without sin because he was GOD.

We as believers, have the same flesh nature as Christ, and we have received a *measure* of the spirit of God, but that does NOT make us GOD! We have received the *earnest* of our inheritance, not the full measure.

We will not receive the full inheritance promised to us until we receive our glorified bodies, and it is then when we will be completely and perfectly made into His image.

Until that time, we still have to deal with our fleshly nature, using the Spirit of the Lord to recognize its attacks, and continue on striving for perfection, yet, knowing until we attain our glorified bodies, we cannot rest and say "the work is done".

Instead.... we must continue the FIGHT of faith.

[MarieA27]

Basically if you're dead to sin, you're not walking in sin, you're not living in sin, the pull of sin is not strong, and kind of non existing.

I think KBTW, when you're referring the flesh nature, you're talking about our basic human nature, and that since it can be tempted, we cant be dead to it, correct?

The problem with this is, you're saying that Jesus was never dead to sin, He wasn't perfect, nor was He holy, for the flesh He had on was the same as ours.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by MarieA27

Basically if you're dead to sin, you're not walking in sin, you're not living in sin, the pull of sin is not strong, and kind of non existing.

I think KBTW, when you're referring the flesh nature, you're talking about our basic human nature, and that since it can be tempted, we cant be dead to it, correct?

The problem with this is, you're saying that Jesus was never dead to sin, He wasn't perfect, nor was He holy, for the flesh He had on was the same as ours.

Jesus is not part of this equation, because remember, HE was also GOD. We are NOT God, we just have a *measure* of the spirit of God or the *earnest* of our inheritance. BIG difference!

We, as believers, will not find a place to rest from the fight against the enemy, our flesh, and sin, until the day we are glorified. That doesn't mean we can't win battles, in fact we should. But we should be aware that just because we've won a battle, doesn't mean the war is over. Our flesh, and the enemy, will always be seeking new ways to tempt, and attack us.

It is a fight, which we must continue, but we CAN be overcomers by the blood of the Lamb, by the Word of God, and by the Spirit of God to recognize the attacks against us.

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Jesus is not part of this equation, because remember, HE was also GOD. We are NOT God, we just have a *measure* of the spirit of God or the *earnest* of our inheritance. BIG difference!

We, as believers, will not find a place to rest from the fight against the enemy, our flesh, and sin, until the day we are glorified. That doesn't mean we can't win battles, in fact we should. But we should be aware that just because we've won a battle, doesn't mean the war is over. Our flesh, and the enemy, will always be seeking new ways to tempt, and attack us.

It is a fight, which we must continue, but we CAN be overcomers by the blood of the Lamb, by the Word of God, and by the Spirit of God to recognize the attacks against us.

He received the Spirit without measure.

[MarieA27]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Jesus is not part of this equation, because remember, HE was also GOD. We are NOT God, we just have a *measure* of the spirit of God or the *earnest* of our inheritance. BIG difference!

We, as believers, will not find a place to rest from the fight against the enemy, our flesh, and sin, until the day we are glorified. That doesn't mean we can't win battles, in fact we should. But we should be aware that just because we've won a battle, doesn't mean the war is over. Our flesh, and the enemy, will always be seeking new ways to tempt, and attack us.

It is a fight, which we must continue, but we CAN be overcomers by the blood of the Lamb, by the Word of God, and by the Spirit of God to recognize the attacks against us.

Yes, Jesus is part of the equation, because when He was in the flesh He was just like us, all the things that you're are saying that we go through, is the exact same thing that Jesus had to deal with, and even worse because He was tempted with everything that the human family deals with.

And those of us that has His spirit are able to live like He did, walk like He walked, the Bible says that He's able to keep us from falling, and present us faultless before Him. If we are faultless does that not mean that we are blameless, that we are perfect?

According to you, then no one will be in heaven and everyone will be condemned to hell, since God commanded us to be holy and perfect and without blame before Him, and again according to you, it is not possible for us to obey God in this, and we're condemned for something that we can't possibly obey.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by MarieA27

According to you, then no one will be in heaven and everyone will be condemned to hell, since God commanded us to be holy and perfect and without blame before Him, and again according to you, it is not possible for us to obey God in this, and we're condemned for something that we can't possibly obey.

I'm sorry that you seem to think I've come off as saying "no one will be in heaven and everyone will be condemned to hell, since God commanded us to be holy and perfect and without blame before Him, and again according to you, it is not possible for us to obey God in this, and we're condemned for something that we can't possibly obey."

I think you've misunderstood what I've been trying to say. We are in a battle, and we CAN OVERCOME. I have said that clearly. What I am also saying is that, the battle is one that is constantly waging, and warring, but yes, we can overcome with the tools that the Lord has given us! (How can you say it is not!) However, we can be led by the Spirit to recognize attacks when they come, and nip them in the bud, so to speak, so that we CAN lead overcoming lives.

But, we must not be fooled or lulled to sleep thinking that we have been made perfect, and can no longer sin, just because the spirit of the Lord now dwells within us. That is a LIE! We cannot be made perfect until we attain our glorified bodies, but we can fight the good fight of faith, and stand against the attacks of the enemy against us, until the day our last battle is won, and we have been glorified to reign with Christ forever. That is the hope that is set before us!

I do believe that we can live above physical lusts and sins, because of the Spirit in our lives, but we must be aware of the spiritual attacks in our minds that can be just as deadly. Physical sins might include lying, stealing, cheating, adultery, etc. Spiritual sins might include pride, jealousy, envy, murmuring, bitterness, hatred.... etc.... the list goes on and on! Those are spiritual things not always manifested in a physical way, but the Spirit of Christ is able to help us see the things in our heart that aren't pleasing to Him, and help us to root out those things in our hearts.

If we weren't fighting the natures of the flesh, why would we fast? Why would we even pray? Why would we even read our Bibles? For if the spirit simply dwelling in our hearts was enough, we wouldn't need any of those things, right?

If believers were truly perfected upon the entrance of the spirit of the Lord, why then did the writers of the NT spend so much time dealing with spiritual heart issues to each of the churches? Notice they did not spend a lot of time dealing with physical sins, such as lying, cheating, adultery etc., but spent a lot of time dealing with issues of the heart. In fact, Jesus too dealt much more with issues of the heart, than He did with anything else.

So, in essence, my point is this: Our fleshly sinful nature is something we must be aware of, and on guard against its attacks. The Spirit of God, and the Word of God are our tools, and weapons to pinpoint, and show us the things in our hearts not pleasing to Him, so that we can live an overcoming life in the abundant grace and mercy of the Lord. We must fight the good fight of faith, against the enemy that lurks, but by the Spirit of the Lord, we can do this and be victorious.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by MarieA27

Yes, Jesus is part of the equation, because when He was in the flesh He was just like us, all the things that you're are saying that we go through, is the exact same thing that Jesus had to deal with, and even worse because He was tempted with everything that the human family deals with.

And those of us that has His spirit are able to live like He did, walk like He walked, the Bible says that He's able to keep us from falling, and present us faultless before Him. If we are faultless does that not mean that we are blameless, that we are perfect?

According to you, then no one will be in heaven and everyone will be condemned to hell, since God commanded us to be holy and perfect and without blame before Him, and again according to you, it is not possible for us to obey God in this, and we're condemned for something that we can't possibly obey.

This is the very thing I feel makes this topic so serious. Most DO NOT understand that anyone who is not without spot and blameless is going to be cast into Hell!

So if one KNOWS they DO have some sin in their life or groups of sins should they not be fully focused on repenting and overcoming them? I mean I see this is NOT optional.

Jesus is coming for a Church like this:

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:25-27

Isnt it right for us to exhort and admonish each other to walk this way?

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This is the very thing I feel makes this topic so serious. Most DO NOT understand that anyone who is not without spot and blameless is going to be cast into Hell!

So if one KNOWS they DO have some sin in their life or groups of sins should they not be fully focused on repenting and overcoming them? I mean I see this is NOT optional.

Jesus is coming for a Church like this:

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:25-27

Isnt it right for us to exhort and admonish each other to walk this way?

MTD, what is your definition of perfection? Since... questions are being asked

BTW... I agree with what you said above. I think we are on the same page, albeit with perhaps some different terminology.

We must not think too carelessly that once we have the spirit of Christ within us that we are automatically perfected. No, it is a progressive work in motion, and something that we continue to work on.

I don't see perfection as something that happens one day, and then you never have to face any sin, temptations, struggles, or battles again. I just don't see that in scripture.

I do see admonishment to continue the fight of faith though. I do see the overwhelming majority of NT scriptures admonishing believers how to pull off the sin holds in their lives. That is why, I don't believe perfection is a one-time event that happens that we never have to worry about it again. It is an ongoing thing that will not be completed until we attain our glorified bodies.

[MarieA27]

KBTW when Jesus was going through all of that He was considered perfect and without sin, how is it that if, when we go through the same thing, and do the same act as He acted in the same situations are not considered perfect?

Our Lord Jesus fought His flesh and temptations, conquered and overcamed all the way through to the end, and resisted the devil at every turn. And everytime temptations came, He never gave in. If we do the same as He did, we will be perfect.

And IF we happen to fall, we get back up, repent, and if that we are forgiven, by nature of this not being counted against us, we can go on back to being perfect. Just because you have sinned in the past, does not mean you cannot be perfect.

And you still never gave me your definition of what you think being perfect in God means?