Love One Another and the Cross

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

I think it is Scripturally impossible to deny that the cross demonstrates God's love for us, while we were yet sinners, and that faith without works is dead. This is not the same as "salvation by works" nor is it an attempt to deny the cross. Denying the cross is saying you love Jesus and then being blinded to "love one another."

It is salvation by works if it is not based upon Christ's death as us and for us, as being the only means to obtain righteousness. Being made righteous is the all-important factor. Denying the cross is not accepting the fact that no number of good deeds or acts of love can make us righteous in the eyes of God. Before we get a chance to do one righteous deed, we are made righteous by God when He sees our faith that Christ's death "as us" remits our sins..

It's all about having sins remitted. No amount of good deeds or acts of love will remit our sins. That means we can love everybody all the time, but still remain in sins, and those sins make us unrighteous.

Salvation by works is saying we did not need Christ to die in our places to be made righteous by God, but we need to love one another to be righteous with God. Loving one another is INDICATION or fruits that we ARE ALREADY righteous. But they do not obtain that righteousness

It of course would not be right to say that Acts 2:38 believers are universally unloving, or any other adjective, since any large group is made up of different hearts; but a people become known by their fruits, and truthful cliches are developed as a witness.

Again, that's the cart before the horse. We are made righteous BY NO WORKS OF OUR OWN, but only by God's work in Christ's death as a proxy for our sins. You are effectively removing the death of Christ for our righteousness, and only retaining His demonstration of love by His death. If His death is no more than a demonstration of love, then any other means to salvation can only be by works, and that is salvation by works.

Grace is an ideal we are all still working toward, i believe; we still exhibit pretty much all of the characteristics of Law, imo; one of them might be developing a law by which others must be "saved," and, possibly, deeming those that Christ would advise one to "Go, and do likewise" as being "lost," somehow, as a result of that law.

I am not denying your argument, as far as it goes; but i am judging it by its fruit.

You need to judge it by the word. And my position as a believer can only be judged by my works. Not the argument itself.

"Every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Christ is Lord."
This is a great confession; but it is meaningless if one does not have love to show they understand it; and we have several passages, more than one, that indicate that it is those who demonstrate Love one another that best reflect the cross--and several that indicate that the ones most loudly proclaiming a law are judged for lack of love.

And the question "If Acts 2:38 saves me, why not just wait until my deathbed to perform it?" becomes an answer, i think.

You keep focusing on the fruit and have already demonstrated with your words about muslims carrying the cross to be saved that you reject the truth that Christ's death in our steads demands faith in that work in order for God to deem us righteous. Such conclusions you present are based not upon obtaining the truth from the bible but seeing snippets of it and never having really gotten the point of the death of Christ for our righteousness.

[shazeep]

none of which answers the question, with all due respect. Attacking my beliefs or my faith just comes across as defensive; this is not about denying the cross, but fulfilling it. And demonstrably not about some snippets, but the heart of Scripture; the founding doctrine, that the early Church considered "sufficient." Your argument does not jibe with "Love is 9/10ths of the Law," and must needs ignore lots of supporting Scripture, too. All those snippets. This argument brings the cross to life, it does not deny it.

[shazeep]

If the Acts 2:38 experience, performed at the altar in front of a church (or wherever), is sufficient unto salvation, what prevents one from applying it on their deathbed?
(the "Constantinian Model")
(And, if it produces dead Christians anyway, what is the diff?)

[shazeep]

another reflection is, which serves one, and which serves others? We are rightly accused of often being navel-gazers.

When you proclaim the cross, no matter how loudly, and say you love Jesus and trust God, but you lock your doors and buy a gun because They are all Lost, you make the Cross of no effect.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

none of which answers the question, with all due respect. Attacking my beliefs or my faith just comes across as defensive;

I am not intending to attack anything. I am just stating what the bible teaches about salvation and works.

this is not about denying the cross, but fulfilling it.

I disagree. You're half right. But you discard the greatest half. The all important part is what remits sins and what makes us righteous. That is the reason you think Muslims carry the cross for God to save them. But they aren't crucified with Christ by faith for remission of sins and deeming of righteousness.

We need to extrapolate further back and get to the beginning. The beginning is what remits sins and what causes us to be righteous. From there we proceed. And as I have been trying to say, we agree totally on the need for fruit and how fruit shows who is true. But before anyone knows who or who is not true, there is what God sees in the Spirit concerning who He deems righteous before they get a chance to do one single good deed.

And demonstrably not about some snippets, but the heart of Scripture; the founding doctrine, that the early Church considered "sufficient." Your argument does not jibe with "Love is 9/10ths of the Law,"

And law saves no one. I said that several times. LAW IS OF WORKS.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

This is the CORE truth. LAW is of works. So whatever is 9/10ths of the law is still 9/10s of works. This is the huge difference between Law and grace.

It is where love comes from, or else it's plastic fruit.

and must needs ignore lots of supporting Scripture, too. All those snippets. This argument brings the cross to life, it does not deny it.

It does deny the cross, because the bible speaks of the cross as making us righteous before one good deed is done. It's just the way it is.

Originally Posted by shazeep

If the Acts 2:38 experience, performed at the altar in front of a church (or wherever), is sufficient unto salvation, what prevents one from applying it on their deathbed?
(the "Constantinian Model")
(And, if it produces dead Christians anyway, what is the diff?)

You are reasoning things away and for some reason absolutely refusing to see if the bible is stating what I am saying or not. Your basis is not the word by reasoning.

The problem with people putting it off as you suggest is that they are in disobedience and God takes note of that. It is a factor. But get into the Word. That is our foundation, not hypotheticals.

Originally Posted by shazeep

another reflection is, which serves one, and which serves others? We are rightly accused of often being navel-gazers.

When you proclaim the cross, no matter how loudly, and say you love Jesus and trust God, but you lock your doors and buy a gun because They are all Lost, you make the Cross of no effect.

I agree. You just aren't getting my point of what MUST COME before all of that.. lol

[shazeep]

"But they aren't crucified with Christ by faith for remission of sins and deeming of righteousness."

How do you know? Essentially, why are Christians so unlike Christ, if all it takes is a confession?

"And law saves no one. I said that several times. LAW IS OF WORKS."

But that is the new law, Mike; "Love God and your neighbor is 90% of the whole deal." I wish you would stop saying this, even just for a minute, and try to see how this is not about salvation by works. This is about a new law; or if that term bothers you, then ask God for another, because isn't this straight from Christ's Mouth?

"So whatever is 9/10ths of the law is still 9/10s of works. This is the huge difference between Law and grace.
It is where love comes from, or else it's plastic fruit."

Well, God will judge that, but you show how the cart gets put before the horse by us, i think. So now the new law of "love one another" is anathema, and the GS is lost, despite "Go, and do likewise," both spoken by Christ! And what, pray tell, is "plastic fruit?" "Good fruit comes from good trees." If you are doing good deeds expecting God to save you for it...ya, we've already covered that, several times. The Good Samaritan was not keeping a Law, Mike.

"It does deny the cross, because the bible speaks of the cross as making us righteous before one good deed is done. It's just the way it is."

I totally agree--oh, unless you are a Muslim, or some other sect of Christian, who isn't saying it right. Prolly you have to be white, like Jesus no, it does not deny the cross; it makes the cross real. It takes the cross off of the wall, and puts it in your heart, and becomes reflected in one's speech. And not doing this is obvious to others, also.

"You are reasoning things away and for some reason absolutely refusing to see if the bible is stating what I am saying or not. Your basis is not the word by reasoning."

A big "amen" to that brother! You will never find God with your mind--or if you do, that is no god that i am interested in. This is why whores and publicans beat Christians into heaven; they find God with their heart. I know and grew up with the Bible as you see it, and either Galatians or Romans may be read out to their conclusions, which you contest.

"The problem with people putting it off as you suggest is that they are in disobedience and God takes note of that. It is a factor. But get into the Word. That is our foundation, not hypotheticals."

So, i can be honestly seeking God as best i am able, and will get no indication from the Holy Spirit when i am making a wrong turn. Talk about hypothetical. Let me say here, as a guy that has made like a million wrong turns, that i got plenty of warnings before, during and after, and this is not true. But anyone may attest to the fact that many people get worse when they "get saved."

"You just aren't getting my point of what MUST COME before all of that.. lol"

Mike, when the convo started, it could be assumed that that was your position; you are a pastor. Reflect upon how we might be deceived into putting Christ on a shelf...no, on the wall? In an Icon? ya, maybe; making an imposing shrine with an image of Christ in it, and losing all spirituality in the matter. I guess that isn't put very well, but some guy saying "that MUST COME before that" (not meaning you, but who you heard it from, iow) might be as good a way as any.

So, in a sense, lose your preconceptions about the cross, and you will find the cross here. I am not trying to steer anyone away from the cross. One might always go back to their former beliefs, if they want to--as if anyone having come to life would want to go back to the grave! Just listen to all the contortions you are having to go through to justify your position

[shazeep]

works of the law are why the priest and the Levite felt justified ignoring the man on the road. And why Christians feel justified saying All Muslims are Lost, because they didn't follow your law, and never mind what is in their heart!

Which denies the cross?
"They are all lost," justifying drone-bombing civilians, and creating more "terrorists," or
"Love one another," which believe me, will cause at least a couple years of personal anguish learning to distinguish from salvation by works. I still fall way short here, even if i am not as often tempted to denigrate and belittle. I still have a long way to go; but i sure am not going back!

[shazeep]

"Yes," says the Spirit, "let them rest from their labors, for their works follow them!"

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

"But they aren't crucified with Christ by faith for remission of sins and deeming of righteousness."

How do you know? Essentially, why are Christians so unlike Christ, if all it takes is a confession?

How do I know? They reject the whole notion that Christ's death is efficacious, by simply denying he was even crucified to begin with. It's in their Q'uran.

"And law saves no one. I said that several times. LAW IS OF WORKS."

But that is the new law, Mike; "Love God and your neighbor is 90% of the whole deal." I wish you would stop saying this, even just for a minute, and try to see how this is not about salvation by works. This is about a new law; or if that term bothers you, then ask God for another, because isn't this straight from Christ's Mouth?

I have never seen anyone miss this point to such an extent before. So it's kind of neat to dialogue in order to explain the point to such a degree as to even let you grasp it. So this is good.

Shazeep, what remits people's sins if they are only to love each other as a new law? How does that remit sins? Does it deal with their sins at all? What is it that causes them to be righteous? I've repeated what the bible teaches about those issues too many times. So, explain what YOU believes deals with those issues?

I am not denying any new law. But you STILL are not getting the point. EVERYTHING EVERYTHING EVERYTHING you say is great IN IT'S PROPER PLACE. And that place is AFTER we are made righteous by Christ's death instead of us. You're as much caught up in works as the people who flipped you out against Acts 2:38 are caught up in works. You both have the same problem if you could just see it.

But let's carry on.

What has love being a new law got to do with what makes us righteous?

"So whatever is 9/10ths of the law is still 9/10s of works. This is the huge difference between Law and grace. It is where love comes from, or else it's plastic fruit."

Well, God will judge that, but you show how the cart gets put before the horse by us, i think.

Rephrase that since I cannot get what you just said there. It went ok until, "by us." What do you mean "by use" Who is "us"? You and those who agree with you, or anybody in general?

So now the new law of "love one another" is anathema,

No it isn't. Why would it be by what I said?

and the GS is lost, despite "Go, and do likewise," both spoken by Christ!

I never said he's lost. You are really really really really really not getting this. I am saying if he is saved it is not because of loving his neighbour as himself. It is because of the death of Christ in his stead being recognized by him and believed by hom to be the root and cause of his righteousness.

And what, pray tell, is "plastic fruit?"

It is FAKE fruit and not real. I already explained that REAL FRUIT is caused by the sap of the vine flowing through into the branch and producing fruit as a result of that union. The sap is the LIFE OF GOD flowing through us. And unless His Spirit is in us, it is only human fruit we are producing, and God does not recognize that. It's not as great a love as the love of His Spirit flowing through us. Put it this way. It's not HIM ACTUALLY and LITERALLY loving through us if we're trying our best to love. But if you cannot grasp the principle of righteousness through His position on the cross to die as us, then you'll certainly miss the true fruit that results from his position inside us to live as us. Do you follow what I am saying?

"Good fruit comes from good trees." If you are doing good deeds expecting God to save you for it...ya, we've already covered that, several times. The Good Samaritan was not keeping a Law, Mike.

Yes he was. Love thy neighbour as thyself. That's a law. I showed you the verse in the Old Testament.

And your reference to the good tree helps me make my point. Before a tree does ANYTHING, it must BE of a certain nature. Likewise, before we CAN do a genuine good deed that God considers good, HE MUST MAKE US RIGHTEOUS. God made the trees to be able to produce fruit. God makes us righteous to enable us to produce good fruit.

"It does deny the cross, because the bible speaks of the cross as making us righteous before one good deed is done. It's just the way it is."

I totally agree--oh, unless you are a Muslim, or some other sect of Christian, who isn't saying it right.

lol. No. It has nothing to do with saying it right. Why are you so fixated on SAYING? You asked if a confession was good enough and I said NO. Never once have I focused nor said anything about SAYING. And yet you repeatedly mention that as though it's my mantra. You don't catch what I actually AM repeating all the time, and you speak as though I am saying things I never said to start with.

Muslims deny Jesus even died on the cross, let alone accepted and believed that death was their only way to see God make them righteous. Surely you can see the iollogic of your statement after I note this detail.

Prolly you have to be white, like Jesus

(Unbelievable.) What on earth happened to you? What on earth has RACE got to do with any of this? You should talk to some muslims who found Christ and denied their Islamic faith and learn what the differences are.

no, it does not deny the cross; it makes the cross real.

No it does not. Like I said, for the umpteenth time, THE CROSS is more than carrying a cross. THE MESSAGE OF THE CROSS is the vicarious death of Christ for our salvation. You deny that entire core basis. And you think the cross is the part of us carrying ours. I will say it AGAIN.... (sigh).... you point to OUR crosses, but you reject HIS CROSS for our righteousness. You think OUR crosses make us righteous, when HIS CROSS did.

It takes the cross off of the wall, and puts it in your heart, and becomes reflected in one's speech. And not doing this is obvious to others, also.

Did I not say I agree?

"You are reasoning things away and for some reason absolutely refusing to see if the bible is stating what I am saying or not. Your basis is not the word by reasoning."

A big "amen" to that brother! You will never find God with your mind--or if you do, that is no god that i am interested in.

Then why are you "reasoning" everything away instead of checking the WORD?

This is why whores and publicans beat Christians into heaven; they find God with their heart. I know and grew up with the Bible as you see it, and either Galatians or Romans may be read out to their conclusions, which you contest.

You did not grow up with the bible as I see it. You are not even grasping what I am saying. If you think you are, try me with some explanations of what you think I am saying, without the "ONLY SAYING" aspect that I never noted to begin with. Outline for me what I am trying to tell you.

"The problem with people putting it off as you suggest is that they are in disobedience and God takes note of that. It is a factor. But get into the Word. That is our foundation, not hypotheticals."

So, i can be honestly seeking God as best i am able, and will get no indication from the Holy Spirit when i am making a wrong turn.

Whatever that means. You are once again speaking unclear. You need to work on that.

Talk about hypothetical. Let me say here, as a guy that has made like a million wrong turns, that i got plenty of warnings before, during and after, and this is not true. But anyone may attest to the fact that many people get worse when they "get saved."

I could care less what people do or did do. I am standing on the word. There are too many variables involved for why a "Christian" is not a true one. This is where YOU get off into reasoning, while you claim you don't.

"You just aren't getting my point of what MUST COME before all of that.. lol"

Mike, when the convo started, it could be assumed that that was your position; you are a pastor.

You do not get what I am saying, and everytime you try to represent me you are wrong. You obviously do not know the bible enough to grasp the most oft repeated issue in the entire volume. Christ's sehd blood for our remission of sins and righteousness.

Reflect upon how we might be deceived into putting Christ on a shelf...no, on the wall?
In an Icon? ya, maybe; making an imposing shrine with an image of Christ in it, and losing all spirituality in the matter. I guess that isn't put very well, but some guy saying "that MUST COME before that" (not meaning you, but who you heard it from, iow) might be as good a way as any.

"Who you heard it from..." How many times must I inform you I spent years studying the word and teach what I received from the Bible. What is this, "Who you heard it from?" Paul? Peter? Jesus? If that's your thought, then amen! Because they're the ones. And for you to say I am using snippets of bible compared to the overall point shows evern moreso you don't know your stuff about the Word.

So, in a sense, lose your preconceptions about the cross,

It's not preconceptions. What I had for preconceptions was what I tossed when I got what I am telling you from the Word itself. And if you would deal with passages I presented and make an attempt, you might, just might, catch it.

and you will find the cross here.

I found it in the word. Whoever and whatever way that who came to tout the things you think I am touting, is not me. Try studying the bible and forget about what people said to you.

[quote]\ I am not trying to steer anyone away from the cross.[quote]

I donb';t think you eve saw anyone near the cross in the way the bible teaches it for you to be able to steer them away. You're just void of awareness of what the Word actually teaches about the cross for you to be able to consciously do that. You steer them away with your 'proxiless' cross and lack of remission of sins and righteousness.

One might always go back to their former beliefs, if they want to--as if anyone having come to life would want to go back to the grave! Just listen to all the contortions you are having to go through to justify your position

Contortions. I never saw anyone MISS what I was saying for me to have to go at it from so many angels. I saw people get this far sooner , and you have still not grasped what I am saying.

You are out of your element. You need to sit back and learn some things. I promise you, you never realized the actual work of the cross for you to say what you do.

Watch some posts.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

works of the law are why the priest and the Levite felt justified ignoring the man on the road.

Nope. You missed it again.

The priest and the Levite missed the Law's own emphasis. Love God and your neighbour as yourself. They are the ones who missed weightier elements of the law, but what they missed was still law. And law is of works... even loving others. And what they lacked in THAT regard still could not save them. Jesus was not talking about salvation there.

And why Christians feel justified saying All Muslims are Lost, because they didn't follow your law, and never mind what is in their heart!

First, I am not justified by saying all muslims are lost. I am only repeating what the bible says about those who deny Christ died AS THEM. That is not my word, it's the Word. Saying they're lost does nothing for me.

It's not my law. It's God's law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. Which you are not even grasping by the way you are describing it. Just to make a point, please just try listening for a minute. You are not at all getting my point. Sorry, but you do not know this aspect of the Bible whatsoever. And I guarantee that the ones who turned you off Acts 2:38 every got it either.

Which denies the cross? "They are all lost," justifying drone-bombing civilians, and creating more "terrorists," or "Love one another," which believe me, will cause at least a couple years of personal anguish learning to distinguish from salvation by works. I still fall way short here, even if i am not as often tempted to denigrate and belittle. I still have a long way to go; but i sure am not going back!

You have not even grasped the actual issue. So, again, if you will listen for a bit.