Love One Another and the Cross

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

unless it is a demonstration of faith, yes.

Not necessarily.

Just because faith starts it that does not mean it's not salvation by works. What is the nature of the faith and what is the faith directed toward in your mind?

If "Love is 9/10ths" has some connection with law to you--and is thus nullified or something?

As far what saves, yes!

is that what you were saying?--and the Good Samaritan is lost, despite "Go, and do likewise,"

I never said the GS was lost. I am just saying what Jesus said about the good samaritan has nothing to do with what saves us. If the GS was saved, it was not because of the good he did. And anyone who does that same good may not be saved at all.

we are pretty much at an impasse w/o some new insight. Why can't i just wait to do that on my deathbed, again?

I am trying to resolve the impasse. What in your mind remits sins and makes us righteous? You're not answering that and I 've asked it more than twice.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Not necessarily.

Just because faith starts it that does not mean it's not salvation by works. What is the nature of the faith and what is the faith directed toward in your mind?

That's a good way to put it--a good question to reflect upon. I will maintain that if your works are not an expression of your faith, you will quickly learn that they are an expression of your ego, and you will be a house divided, because "love your enemies" is anathema to self, and you will stop doing one or the other.

Originally Posted by mfblume

As far what saves, yes!

This seems anti-Christ to me now, as i read Christ's Words there as instructional; but i also see that the Bible is written in such a way as to offer a choice to anyone who reads it; salvation is not of works, yet faith without works is dead, etc. For any doctrine that can be "proven" with Scripture, there is a doctrine seemingly at odds with it. And then we are called to be sure in our own minds!

Our choices reveal our hearts; so i wouldn't want to prove my position here beyond a certain point, anyway--or insist that it is the "right" one; you must have faith in Christ, and i don't mean to deny this. Whether we have a viable understanding of Christ, to have faith in, might certainly be arguable, but i think that that evolves in someone over time; one hopefully gains a deeper understanding of Christ today then they had yesterday. My position on Love comes some 40 years after my Acts 2:38 experience; but i doubt that this will be my terminal understanding of Christ.

Originally Posted by mfblume

I never said the GS was lost. I am just saying what Jesus said about the good samaritan has nothing to do with what saves us. If the GS was saved, it was not because of the good he did. And anyone who does that same good may not be saved at all.

Put that way, i must agree, as it allows that they may be, also. It was reflection upon this parable, along with the parable of the Vineyard Owner with Two Sons, and the parable of the Separation of Sheep and Goats that illuminated for me how those who claim to have a valid understanding of God are shown to fall short.

You will argue that the GS was lost if he made no confession of human understanding of Christ; i would argue that in doing an unselfish good deed--which an ego-centered person does not do--he demonstrated the spirit of Christ, that made no sense even to the priest and the Levite, even though he likely had never heard of Christ's Name or ministry--or else why intentionally choose a Samaritan for the parable? It seems anathema to your pov; but that doesn't mean it is.

Originally Posted by mfblume

I am trying to resolve the impasse. What in your mind remits sins and makes us righteous? You're not answering that and I 've asked it more than twice.

well of course i began with your understanding, and do not deny that it is faith in God. But i have experienced that "faith in God, and Christ His Son" is just not adequately encompassed in "i went to church today and got saved."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

That's a good way to put it--a good question to reflect upon. I will maintain that if your works are not an expression of your faith, you will quickly learn that they are an expression of your ego,

I agree.

and you will be a house divided, because "love your enemies" is anathema to self, and you will stop doing one or the other.

Amen.

This seems anti-Christ to me now, as i read Christ's Words there as instructional; but i also see that the Bible is written in such a way as to offer a choice to anyone who reads it; salvation is not of works, yet faith without works is dead, etc.

Agreed.

For any doctrine that can be "proven" with Scripture, there is a doctrine seemingly at odds with it. And then we are called to be sure in our own minds!

Moot when you get the overall understanding from ALL scripture.

Our choices reveal our hearts; so i wouldn't want to prove my position here beyond a certain point, anyway--or insist that it is the "right" one; you must have faith in Christ, and i don't mean to deny this.

But you are bypassing the actual target of what it is about Christ we need faith in. You're just saying faith in Christ. But the bible teaches it is His death FOR US that is the more particular faith we have in Him.

Whether we have a viable understanding of Christ, to have faith in, might certainly be arguable, but i think that that evolves in someone over time; one hopefully gains a deeper understanding of Christ today then they had yesterday. My position on Love comes some 40 years after my Acts 2:38 experience; but i doubt that this will be my terminal understanding of Christ.

Again, if it does not stem from the death of Christ AS US, then it is not the faith the bible speaks about that saves.

Put that way, i must agree, as it allows that they may be, also. It was reflection upon this parable, along with the parable of the Vineyard Owner with Two Sons, and the parable of the Separation of Sheep and Goats that illuminated for me how those who claim to have a valid understanding of God are shown to fall short.

But you are consistently not going to the root and vine from which the true fruit grows. In all you say, you avoid the death of Christ as us, which is the core of the New Testament. You even take the cross and only focus on how much He loved us to die for us on it, and then speak about carrying our crosses. But you are not dealing with THE big deal of the reference to the cross. His death in proxy of us.

You will argue that the GS was lost if he made no confession of human understanding of Christ;

No no no. I never said that. I even told you before I never said that. That is not what I believe. He is lost if he has not identified himself with CHrist's death on the cross as his only means of escape from sins by remission of those sins, so as to be considered by God as a NEW CREATURE altogether, with his "old man" with all his sins destroyed by that death.

Why do you keep going back to confession? Let me put it this way:

God looks and presents us the message of the vicarious death of Christ on the cross. Christ died IN OUR STEAD. God counts that death as OUR DEATHS. Taht's what it was meant to be:

2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Christ's death for us means WE ARE CONSIDERED DEAD. It's like me paying a bill for you at the hydro office that you were unable to pay. The office considers YOUR ACCOUNT paid. Another paid it for you.

That's what Isaiah meant:

Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

He paid OUR death penalty that we deserved. None of this is in anything you use to explain the cross, so your cross is bereft of the vicarious aspect of His death.

Shazeep, an offering and sacrifice is a death that's meant to be offered as though the person who is offering it died himself.

Leviticus 1:4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

That death is accepted by God as it were the death of the person offering it. That is the principle of sacrifice. If you experienced Acts 2:38 years ago and never realized this all those years, you really were in a ritual alone, which is likely why you refer to it so much as a ritual. You never knew what you were doing, and God did nothing with you in that empty ritual.

i would argue that in doing an unselfish good deed--which an ego-centered person does not do--he demonstrated the spirit of Christ, that made no sense even to the priest and the Levite, even though he likely had never heard of Christ's Name or ministry--or else why intentionally choose a Samaritan for the parable? It seems anathema to your pov; but that doesn't mean it is.

It is far from anathema. But you will never grasp my pov until you first realize what I have repeated now for days. Do you understand proxy death in sacrifice?

well of course i began with your understanding, and do not deny that it is faith in God. But i have experienced that "faith in God, and Christ His Son" is just not adequately encompassed in "i went to church today and got saved."

I agree. Without our faith in His death in my place, and faith that it caused God to remit my sins and consider me a new creature with no history of sins, then no amount of going to church and saying you got saved means anything whatsoever.

[mfblume]

God looks for the following in order to save a soul:

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Passage into Christ takes place at the point of His death by faith.

It's accomplished so we can have a new life without sin.

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

This new life is resurrection life, and you cannot have a resurrection without a death.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Since His was the only death that resulted in resurrection into immortality, we must be baptized into that death in order to likewise walk in newness of life. And our co-deaths with Him cause our old lives of sin to be destroyed. This is what I have been trying to say all along. Co-death with Christ destroys our old lives and sins.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

There is no freedom from sin from any number of loving good deeds. DEATH frees us from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

If we just die, period, we may be free from sin, but we're lost and cannot enjoy freedom from sin in this life. However, there is the death and resurrection of Jesus we can enter like an ark, and ride through death by way of His experience of death, so we can resurrect with him.

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

The benefits Christ has from having died is his freedom from further death. Now that He's resurrection, He cannot die again, but He lives UNTO GOD. All of that becomes OUR BENEFITS once we're baptized into His death. Notice what was said of Christ in having died to sin and now being alive to God is repeated in us if we've been baptized into that death first, as follows:

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.

THIS is what saves us from sin. Not doing loving good deeds.

[shazeep]

Yes, i think i grasp the legal ramifications, Mike; it is when they lead one to "Everyone else is lost" that we part company. This is why i keep referring to a "ritual," as that pov is a widely held one, among Western Christians, and OPs are inarguably in the lead there.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Yes, i think i grasp the legal ramifications, Mike; it is when they lead one to "Everyone else is lost" that we part company.

Then you do not grasp it.

lol

You think you follow it but you do not.

[mfblume]

If you follow what I am saying, put it in your own words. I have noticed you keep talking about confession which I never stated. So you really don't get it. That's why you are unable to answer me as to what remits sins and what makes us righteous. I dare say it's a spiritual issue inside you that prohibits you and it's not from a good source. It's a blinded mind. And that ain't name calling.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

If you follow what I am saying, put it in your own words. I have noticed you keep talking about confession which I never stated. So you really don't get it. That's why you are unable to answer me as to what remits sins and what makes us righteous. I dare say it's a spiritual issue inside you that prohibits you and it's not from a good source. It's a blinded mind. And that ain't name calling.

Of course not; it is your perspective, and ergo must be the correct one--it can even be "proven" with Scripture. I am deficient, and don't get it. I have spiritual issues, and must be possessed by a demon! A person should be convinced in their own mind.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Of course not; it is your perspective, and ergo must be the correct one--it can even be "proven" with Scripture. I am deficient, and don't get it. I have spiritual issues, and must be possessed by a demon! A person should be convinced in their own mind.

It's really quite evident after I present passages that you don't so much as respond to with an alternative explanation, and show you entire chapters that teach the concept, and note them verse by verse and you still do not respond. You REFUSE to deal with actual bible I present after you asked me to show them to you!.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Then you do not grasp it.

lol

You think you follow it but you do not.

well, that is your opinion. We started with "it;" "it" is what i am offering a different perspective on. "It" is what, apparently, produces "Everyone else is lost."