Love One Another and the Cross

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Romans chapter 1 outlined the viewpoint of the Hebrews' correct perspective on Gentiles who were never trained by God nor had the Law of God to enlighten their paths.

Paul started with stating some introductory remarks before noting the creation of the world preaches the gospel to everyone, so Gentiles under paganism before the cross could know there was a true God.

Romans 1:18-23 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

But they denigrated into idolatry out of a desire to not honour what their consciences surely convicted them to honour from their observations of creation. So, God gave them over to such an extent that homosexuality and lesbianism, which mars the very image of God in man, was rampant among them.

Romans 1:24-27 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: (25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. (26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

And they actually loved to see others engage in wickedness, let alone do it themselves.

Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Then chapter two comes along and God appeals ot he Jews who THINK THAT WAY and gloat over the gentiles' wickedness, thinking themselves better because they had... TADA!!!! ...Law.

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

The jews were doing the same sins!

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Chapter two slams it back on the gloating Old Covenant Jews, themselves, who think they were better simply because they KNEW more and KNEW how to serve God, though they could personally never do it.

Romans 2:2-6 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. (3) And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? (4) Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? (5) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; (6) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Everybody thinks they're superior because of WHAT THEY KNOW!

Paul informed the Jews that they did indeed KNOW MORE truth, but the way they live was sinful as much as the gentiles' lvies, and God judges Jews as well as Gentiles.

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

And perhaps you might see this is where you focused in on. But you never go the point Paul was leading his readers to.

He went on to say a Jew might be circumcised in the flesh, unlike a gross heathen of a gentile (!), but it's the HEART that matters. And if the heart is not circumcised, then the fleshly circumcised Jew will sin as much as the uncircumcised gentile.

Romans 2:25-28 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. (26) Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? (27) And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? (28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Now, chapter 3 hits on the point you missed, Shazeep.

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Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

If a Jew is not better, really, than a Gentile, if they both sin, despite who KNOWS more, what's so great about being a Jew? Paul said there were benefits, but they have nothing to do with being better due to ethnicity and knowledge than gentiles. He says they were specially chosen to have the words (oracles) of God granted to them.

Paul stated both Jews and Gentiles are sinners. Period.

Now, here is where LAW comes in along with LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

Romans 3:9-19 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; (10) As it is written,

There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: (14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: (15) Their feet are swift to shed blood: (16) Destruction and misery are in their ways: (17) And the way of peace have they not known: (18) There is no fear of God before their eyes.

(19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Paul quoted LAW in verses 10 through 18. And then he said everything those verses said were from Law, and you need to realize Law is ONLY WRITTEN TO AND ABOUT PEOPLE UNDER LAW. So, he said the Law actually condemned all the Jews under it's own jurisdiction.

Indeed, jews and gentiles were all sinners, despite what one KNEW and the other didn't.

And the last clause of verse 19 shows the purpose of Law like I tried to show you in Galatians 3. ...which you never responded to, nor I doubt even carefully looked at. You asked for one verse, and it's not that simple. And furthermore, NO, a child cannot receive this. There are what they call the DEEP THINGS OF GOD, and they are not easy to grasp. The word was not talking about this aspect when it noted a fool will not err therein.

Paul said God proved through giving of the law that "that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." Those whose MOUTHS were gloating against and over gentiles were STOPPED IN THEIR MOUTHS by the words of the Law, they so felt exalted them above gentiles, itself.

Law proved all are sinners. For gentiles to have no law and sin, no biggie. But for JEWS to have Law and be cultured in it by GOD, Himself, and still be unable to stop sinning, THAT WAS A BIGGIE. And that showed that ALL FLESH IS SINFUL.

If God can give His law to people outlining just how to live, and the people still be unable to live it, then God is showing that from gentiles without law to jews with law, there's no difference. MAN CANNOT SAVE HIMSELF BY WORKS.

Law had all the works outlined for those who wanted to save themselves! Moses said the man who DOES those things will LIVE! Succeed! BUT NONE DID NOR COULD.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

All the love one another, and the 9/10's of the law CANNOT SAVE ANYONE. Why? No one can successfully do them!

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Now if you have A.D.D. there's no way you read all of that, whomever you may be! Not just S.

But since S and I are directly chatting here..., S, do you follow me so far? When you asked for one verse I knew you knew little of the word enough to not realize one verse has no nutshell thought. Verse numbers are only for reference, not for complete points. So, if you stiol cannot read more than a verse and deal with context, let me know now. I hit the very point in Romans that touches on the KEY. WHY LAW CAME with it's LOVE commandments. And if you can't or won't follow this context, we're done, boss. I will simply carry on for others willing to find out what thrilled my soul through the years more than ANYTHING in the entire Word!

[shazeep]

ok, just beware that that might easily be "a false sense of superiority," as we tend to be susceptible to that. There are signs, if that is the case. And sorry, i wasn't trying to hold you to one verse, i meant like one passage; attempting to avoid...that ^ lol

Romans makes a good argument, but it is a different one. This is not about salvation by works, no matter how often you bring that up; otherwise the Constantinian Model of salvation is valid. So possibly--to approach this from Romans, i might put it as a "failure to die in baptism" issue:

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

but i'm at a loss as to how to develop this off the cuff, and i would need a day.
How does one show that the Acts 2:38 model might be done disingenuously (Constantine), or even in ignorance? Except by works? lemme think about it.

7Let us be glad, rejoice, and give Him glory,n
because the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and His wife has prepared herself.o
8She was given fine linen to wear, bright and pure.p

For the fine linen represents the righteous acts of the •saints.q

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok, just beware that that might easily be "a false sense of superiority,"

But you repeatedly responded to all i said as if i received or was told what im saying, as though you had the superior concept no matter how much i told you i studied this on my own. So...

as we tend to be susceptible to that. There are signs, if that is the case. And sorry, i wasn't trying to hold you to one verse, i meant like one passage; attempting to avoid...that ^ lol

Romans makes a good argument, but it is a different one. This is not about salvation by works, no matter how often you bring that up; otherwise the Constantinian Model of salvation is valid. So possibly--to approach this from Romans, i might put it as a "failure to die in baptism" issue:

it is salvaton by works no matter how much you deny it.

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

but i'm at a loss as to how to develop this off the cuff, and i would need a day.
How does one show that the Acts 2:38 model might be done disingenuously (Constantine), or even in ignorance? Except by works? lemme think about it.

7Let us be glad, rejoice, and give Him glory,n
because the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and His wife has prepared herself.o
8She was given fine linen to wear, bright and pure.p

For the fine linen represents the righteous acts of the osaints.q

Please indicate what remit sins and makes us he just in your assessment.

As far as knowing who is sincere in heart a boy he dross. ... who cares? God knows . The only thing fruits have to do with it is informing us. They are important as I've repeatedly ad nauseum affirmed. But the thing that saves is what God sees.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

it is salvaton by works no matter how much you deny it.

unless it is a demonstration of faith, yes. If "Love is 9/10ths" has some connection with law to you--and is thus nullified or something? is that what you were saying?--and the Good Samaritan is lost, despite "Go, and do likewise," we are pretty much at an impasse w/o some new insight. Why can't i just wait to do that on my deathbed, again?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

unless it is a demonstration of faith, yes.

Not necessarily.

Just because faith starts it that does not mean it's not salvation by works. What is the nature of the faith and what is the faith directed toward in your mind?

If "Love is 9/10ths" has some connection with law to you--and is thus nullified or something?

As far what saves, yes!

is that what you were saying?--and the Good Samaritan is lost, despite "Go, and do likewise,"

I never said the GS was lost. I am just saying what Jesus said about the good samaritan has nothing to do with what saves us. If the GS was saved, it was not because of the good he did. And anyone who does that same good may not be saved at all.

we are pretty much at an impasse w/o some new insight. Why can't i just wait to do that on my deathbed, again?

I am trying to resolve the impasse. What in your mind remits sins and makes us righteous? You're not answering that and I 've asked it more than twice.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Not necessarily.

Just because faith starts it that does not mean it's not salvation by works. What is the nature of the faith and what is the faith directed toward in your mind?

That's a good way to put it--a good question to reflect upon. I will maintain that if your works are not an expression of your faith, you will quickly learn that they are an expression of your ego, and you will be a house divided, because "love your enemies" is anathema to self, and you will stop doing one or the other.

Originally Posted by mfblume

As far what saves, yes!

This seems anti-Christ to me now, as i read Christ's Words there as instructional; but i also see that the Bible is written in such a way as to offer a choice to anyone who reads it; salvation is not of works, yet faith without works is dead, etc. For any doctrine that can be "proven" with Scripture, there is a doctrine seemingly at odds with it. And then we are called to be sure in our own minds!

Our choices reveal our hearts; so i wouldn't want to prove my position here beyond a certain point, anyway--or insist that it is the "right" one; you must have faith in Christ, and i don't mean to deny this. Whether we have a viable understanding of Christ, to have faith in, might certainly be arguable, but i think that that evolves in someone over time; one hopefully gains a deeper understanding of Christ today then they had yesterday. My position on Love comes some 40 years after my Acts 2:38 experience; but i doubt that this will be my terminal understanding of Christ.

Originally Posted by mfblume

I never said the GS was lost. I am just saying what Jesus said about the good samaritan has nothing to do with what saves us. If the GS was saved, it was not because of the good he did. And anyone who does that same good may not be saved at all.

Put that way, i must agree, as it allows that they may be, also. It was reflection upon this parable, along with the parable of the Vineyard Owner with Two Sons, and the parable of the Separation of Sheep and Goats that illuminated for me how those who claim to have a valid understanding of God are shown to fall short.

You will argue that the GS was lost if he made no confession of human understanding of Christ; i would argue that in doing an unselfish good deed--which an ego-centered person does not do--he demonstrated the spirit of Christ, that made no sense even to the priest and the Levite, even though he likely had never heard of Christ's Name or ministry--or else why intentionally choose a Samaritan for the parable? It seems anathema to your pov; but that doesn't mean it is.

Originally Posted by mfblume

I am trying to resolve the impasse. What in your mind remits sins and makes us righteous? You're not answering that and I 've asked it more than twice.

well of course i began with your understanding, and do not deny that it is faith in God. But i have experienced that "faith in God, and Christ His Son" is just not adequately encompassed in "i went to church today and got saved."

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God looks for the following in order to save a soul:

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Passage into Christ takes place at the point of His death by faith.

It's accomplished so we can have a new life without sin.

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

This new life is resurrection life, and you cannot have a resurrection without a death.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Since His was the only death that resulted in resurrection into immortality, we must be baptized into that death in order to likewise walk in newness of life. And our co-deaths with Him cause our old lives of sin to be destroyed. This is what I have been trying to say all along. Co-death with Christ destroys our old lives and sins.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

There is no freedom from sin from any number of loving good deeds. DEATH frees us from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

If we just die, period, we may be free from sin, but we're lost and cannot enjoy freedom from sin in this life. However, there is the death and resurrection of Jesus we can enter like an ark, and ride through death by way of His experience of death, so we can resurrect with him.

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

The benefits Christ has from having died is his freedom from further death. Now that He's resurrection, He cannot die again, but He lives UNTO GOD. All of that becomes OUR BENEFITS once we're baptized into His death. Notice what was said of Christ in having died to sin and now being alive to God is repeated in us if we've been baptized into that death first, as follows:

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.

THIS is what saves us from sin. Not doing loving good deeds.