Romans 10:9 - Page 13

Adino · #**121** 01-01-2008, 09:45 PM

I really did mean it when I said:

I'd really like to hear someone from the water/spirit persuasion exegete these passages (Numbers 21:8-9 and John 3:14-18). In light of the fact that John 3 specifically speaks of being born again, the author's comments after John 3:1-8 are relevant to the discussion as well.

Explain the correlation the author makes between the faith alone which brought healing in the wilderness and faith in Christ which brings eternal life.

Thanks.

Quote:

Anyone, when the serpent was placed on the pole in the wilderness.... did the children of Israel need to be baptized and speak in tongues in order to be healed?

The answer to this is pertinent to John 3:14-18 and to the point of this thread.

For your convenience:

Numbers 21:8-9

And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

John 3:14-18

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

RevDWW · #**122** 01-01-2008, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adino

I really did mean it when I said:

I'd really like to hear someone from the water/spirit persuasion exegete these passages (Numbers 21:8-9 and John 3:14-18). In light of the fact that John 3 specifically speaks of being born again, the author's comments after John 3:1-8 are relevant to the discussion as well.

Explain the correlation the author makes between the faith alone which brought healing in the wilderness and faith in Christ which brings eternal life.

Thanks.

Quote:

Joh 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
Joh 3:23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
Joh 3:24 For John was not yet cast into prison.
Joh 3:25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
Joh 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
Joh 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Joh 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

Can you explain away the fact that Jesus talks of being born of the water and the Spirit and then His disciples begin baptizing folks in water?

Praxeas · #**123** 01-01-2008, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adino

I really did mean it when I said:

I'd really like to hear someone from the water/spirit persuasion exegete these passages (Numbers 21:8-9 and John 3:14-18). In light of the fact that John 3 specifically speaks of being born again, the author's comments after John 3:1-8 are relevant to the discussion as well.

Explain the correlation the author makes between the faith alone which brought healing in the wilderness and faith in Christ which brings eternal life.

Thanks.

The author does not speak of faith alone...the narration or Jesus uses this analogy to show what needed to happen to Jesus. Those same people that had faith to be healed failed to enter the promised land because of a lack of faith.....

Adino · #**124** 01-02-2008, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Can you explain away the fact that Jesus talks of being born of the water and the Spirit and then His disciples begin baptizing folks in water?

I have done this multiple times on this forum, but for your convenience I will be brief here. It is a strong probability that word "water" in John 3 carries the same metaphorical meaning it carries in John 4 and John 7. In 4 and 7 it is a metaphor for the Spirit. Christ, in John 3, uses the term to place extreme emphasis on spiritual rebirth which is the focus of the remaining chapter.

Concerning the baptisms: Christ himself did not baptize, but his disciples. In baptism men were declaring their allegiance to Christ. They were declaring that they had become his disciples. When Christ saw that word had got out that he was gathering more followers than John..... he left the area. If baptism was so salvific, interesting that Christ stopped saving people just because it upstaged John.

John 4:1-3

When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.

Adino · #**125** 01-02-2008, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The author does not speak of faith alone...the narration or Jesus uses this analogy to show what needed to happen to Jesus. Those same people that had faith to be healed failed to enter the promised land because of a lack of faith.....

So the analogy stops at the lifting up and does not include the believing unto salvation? Isn't the following true?

Joh 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That [as with the lifted serpent] whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life..... 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life......20:30-31 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Adino · #**126** 01-02-2008, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Can you explain away the fact that Jesus talks of being born of the water and the Spirit and then His disciples begin baptizing folks in water?

I'm going to add one more thing to this:

John 4:1
When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John

Notice that Christ only baptized those who had become his disciples. He made disciples and baptized those disciples.

Christ only baptized Christians!

This is precisely what Christ taught to do in Matthew 28:19

Go to the people of all nations and make them my disciples. Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (CEV)

We are commanded to baptize Christians! Only those who are FIRST Christians are to be baptized!

OneAccord · #**127** 01-02-2008, 09:00 AM

Go to all nations (people)

Teach them to become disciples

THEN Baptize them in water

and (then) teach them to obey.

Thats what Peter did at Pentecost. Taught them to believe and accept the Gospel. Then baptized them in water. Mark 16.... Believe THEN be baptized.

Adino · #**128** 01-02-2008, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Go to all nations (people)

Teach them to become disciples

THEN Baptize them in water

and (then) teach them to obey.

Thats what Peter did at Pentecost. Taught them to believe and accept the Gospel. Then baptized them in water. Mark 16.... Believe THEN be baptized.

Sorry, Bro. Not what John 4:1 says. Christ first made disciples then baptized them.

Though I agree with "Believe THEN be baptized". Believing made people Christians..... Christians were THEN baptized.

Only people who are FIRST Christians are to be baptized.

scotty · #**129** 01-02-2008, 09:05 AM

Wellll yeah, I mean could you actually dunk a non-believer without being arrested for attempted murder??

scotty · #**130** 01-02-2008, 09:10 AM

Here my opinion, one must be a clean vessel for the infilling of the Holy Ghost, or as we say "have your heart right". This is done through "true" repentance. God wants everyone to be saved so that none may perish. All that being said. If someone "truly" repents why would they not recieve the Holy Ghost as evidence of speaking in tongues.

To me salvation is at the infilling (ducking). Anyone can say they have repented or believe, but only God knows the heart, and if the heart of repentance is true and pure then the infilling WILL follow. Seek and ye shall find. It is our promise from Him. If the God Almighty fills one with His spirit then whether or not that one is saved is no longer a question. Baptized or not. Yet one who recieves the Holy Ghost is going to get baptized, the Spirit will insist it.