Love One Another and the Cross - Page 15

mfblume · #1 11-30-2015, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shazeep

How can both be true, iow--

"God is Love."

"Everyone who does not believe like i do goes to hell."

Here is the logical fallacy in this salvation-by-works based implication.

When the word of God states God loved the entire world so much that He gave His Son in death as a sacrifice for us to have everlasting life, and then in the same breath said its those who BELIEVE who receive that eternal life, BELIEF is the key not works.

Joh 3:14-18 KJV And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Over and over, the most widely known passage showing God's love, spoken by Jesus, Himself, is surrounded and itself includes the need to BELIEVE. What specific thing must we believe? We must believe in His name/authority in being the one whose death is the avenue of God's love displayed to us for our salvation and reception of eternal life.

Someone comes along who rejects Christ's authority to be the one whose DEATH ALONE manifests God's love, and doesn't even believe Jesus was crucified, let alone the sole one whose authority in His death is the avenue of salvation. In short, it's not they don't believe WHAT I BELIEVE. lol. It is simply dishonest to phrase it in that manner. It's disbelief in what the very One, Himself, said about the avenue of God's love.

So, it is not a matter of disbelieving WHAT I BELIEVE. What I believe is not the focus. If I believe what Jesus said I must believe to get eternal life, then that is true. But to phrase it that way alone is absolutely dishonest, and severely disingenuous.

The actual focus is upon what JESUS SAID we must believe. So, if people do not believe what JESUS SAID THEY MUST BELIEVE, they are lost. It is a red herring and a dishonest lie to say the focus on our words is upon what we believe, and the claim that all who are lost because they disagree with that. The truth is all are lost who disagree with what Jesus said we must believe.

LIE: We claim people who don believe what we do are all going to hell.

TRUTH: People who do not believe what Jesus said we must believe are all going to hell.

Here's what we must believe:

Joh 3:14-18 KJV And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And if they do not believe THAT, they are LOST AND CONDEMNED already.

Shazeep, do you agree with the following words?

Joh 3:14-18 KJV And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Shazeep, where is ONE NOTE of your salvation by the works of loving each other in the above passage -- or even the entire chapter? THAT chapter is speaking about salvation. Not the chapter about the good Samaritan.

shazeep · #2 11-30-2015, 07:32 AM

as i said, although i am generalizing, you are a proxy for the chartered church here, and i wanted to provide every opportunity for any opposition to God is Love to get a hearing.

mfblume · #3 11-30-2015, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

as i said, although i am generalizing, you are a proxy for the chartered church here, and i wanted to provide every opportunity for any opposition to God is Love to get a hearing.

We're not denying that. That's what you keep missing. I;m, saying you're misplacing that and not allowing the overall volume of the bible teaching to correctly position that. You have something in your head you did not get from the bible, but from reasoning, as you demonstrated various times in our chats in other issues, and you deny the core truth of the love of God through the cross.

In fact, love is first only in the sense that God so loved the entire world, no exceptions, that He gave His only Son in sacrifice to die in proxy as them and thereby grant us righteousness before we personally love anybody. God FIRST loved us, before we could love. But you won't answer that either.

Your version seems to propose God loves ONLY those who love others. But the truth is His love is greater than that and loves everyone EQUALLY! EVERYONE! And His love was demonstrated in loving us through the cross so there is no respect of persons. You have a works-based show of God's love on us, and it is OUR works you claim God looks for to love us and save us You cannot answer what remits sins and what gives righteousness. And you won't allow anyone to question you assumed position. You troll through all we ever said.

shazeep · #4 11-30-2015, 10:30 AM

"Your doctrine is salvation by works in which a person earns righteousness by loving people."

Well, you keep insisting upon that; yet faith without works is still dead. So, i think this might be another impasse.

You must have works to find salvation. (i'll just state it as baldly as possible)
true or false?

"What makes us righteous is our faith in His death and resurrection."
then why are fundamental Christians such jerks? We either have different definitions of "righteous," "faith," "His death," or "resurrection," or some combination.

I'll try to read the rest of your tome up there--or have my lawyer look it over--here in a bit; but it is obvious that religion invites one into certain legal interpretations of Scripture that then become our assumptions, and it doesn't hurt to examine these; especially when they lead one into such demonstrable oxymorons as "Everyone who does not believe like i do is lost, and going to hell" but "God is love."

Christ is certainly the author and perfecter of our faith; i am not intent on leading anyone away from the Cross, but toward it. "Greater LOVE hath no man."

Understand that i am not going to try to question your quotations--i could "prove" that Paul was "lost" using Scripture, too. So at a certain point, one must interpret with their heart.

mfblume · #5 11-30-2015, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

"Your doctrine is salvation by works in which a person earns righteousness by loving people."

Well, you keep insisting upon that; yet faith without works is still dead. So, i think this might be another impasse.

If you would discuss this we can narrow down the issue. But everytime we come to the need to discuss a point you ignore it and nothing is accomplished. Everytime I say we have to dissect a verse and see what it's saying and what it's not saying, you are no where to be found.

For example, with this point you just made: I repeatedly said, YES, faith without works is dead. But what is that faith? What is if toward? What must be believed? And that faith WILL GROW and produce fruit. But FRUIT takes time to grow, that's why it's called fruit.

Quote:

You must have works to find salvation. (i'll just state it as baldly as possible)
true or false?

False.

Quote:

"What makes us righteous is our faith in His death and resurrection."
then why are fundamental Christians such jerks?

See? rather than go by what the word says or not, by actually taking the verses that deal with it, you resort to reasoning and counting heads. The fact is THERE ARE CHRISTIANS who are not jerks. But nevertheless, what saith the word? You are saying, "Since so many Christians are jerks, then the word is WRONG about faith."

Quote:

We either have different definitions of "righteous," "faith," "His death," or "resurrection," or some combination.

But you won't discuss those things to deal with that answer. I'm trying.

Quote:

I'll try to read the rest of your tome up there--or have my lawyer look it over--here in a bit; but it is obvious that religion invites one into certain legal interpretations of Scripture that then become our assumptions, and it doesn't hurt to examine these; especially when they lead one into such demonstrable oxymorons as "Everyone who does not believe like i do is lost, and going to hell" but "God is love."

I dealt with the logical fallacy in that example of yours.

Quote:

Christ is certainly the author and perfecter of our faith; i am not intent on leading anyone away from the Cross, but toward it. "Greater LOVE hath no man."

What is the cross to you, though? I am narrowing these issues down, and your'e not getting involved. From what you've said, the cross is what YOU CARRY by LOVING. What I am saying is that is the secondary issue. The primary is CHRIST'S CROSS that He died AS US on.

Quote:

Understand that i am not going to try to question your quotations--i could "prove" that Paul was "lost" using Scripture, too. So at a certain point, one must interpret with their heart.

Context is vital. What is your interpreting with the heart? IS that not caring what context is but basing it upon an ethereal FEELING that one cannot be saved if one says others are lost? What is the basis for this ethereal FEELING, though? Is it Word? What Word? And it's not matter of the letter killeth. Paul was talking about OLD COVENANT Word when he said that.

But if your HEART is the basis for your assessment of any given verse in the bible, the heart is desperately wicked, and who can know it? That's why our hearts cannot be the foundation of truth we rely upon to compare it with errors. THE WORD itself is the foundation. It is without bias whereas the heart is full of bias. And so we must be as honest as we can AS WE read the word to find truth. God meant ONE THING when He gave a truth, and did NOT intend us to interpret it at whims of our HEARTS.

mfblume · #6 11-30-2015, 12:15 PM

I ask you to focus on what I said here:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=163

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=164

It, I think, is the basis of our differences.

mfblume · #7 12-07-2015, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

I ask you to focus on what I said here:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=163

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=164

It, I think, is the basis of our differences.

bump

mfblume · #8 12-07-2015, 03:16 PM

The issue here is that you feel anyone who claims people are lost is a hypocrite, because you think that automatically means they're exalting themselves, and they are gloating and thinking "Nyah nyah, you're lost. I'm not. Nyah nyah."

Meanwhile that's nonsense. There is such a thing as objectively stating what the bible says about who is lost, and that is not anyone's opinion when it's simply quoiting Word with context proved to say so. And the word of God informs us about what is required to be saved, stating those who do not follow it through are not saved. And those not saved are lost.

The bible says if people do not accept certain things and reject obedience to certain directives, they're lost. The word is not a game from God in which are statements far too vague to really know. (Maybe that's why you write vaguely.) The Word is not something that does not mean what it says. A child can understand the issues one must believe in the heart to be saved. We're not all lost and in the dark. The word sheds great light to a our paths. But when we nullify the word to not meaning what it says, because no one can really know the truth, then those furthest away from what the bible claims, who actually deny what the bible flatly states, can be saved, and those who stand on what the word says without a self exalting note in their hearts are lost as lost can be. This is truly when men call good evil and call evil good. This is a prime example.

But none of this will mean anything to a blinded mind, because words lose all meaning.

shazeep · #9 12-08-2015, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

bump

ok these are just too dense for me to give a reply to, sorry. Good deeds done from an impure heart, expecting reward, will not save you. And, faith without works is dead. Perhaps coming from a codependent family, with it's intrinsic deal-making from birth, has helped me to see this, but really if you do good deeds in secret to those who could not possibly be of any advantage to you in the future, you have grasped 90% of the point imo.

It is considered low-class to take open advantage of people to us now; but that is a way of life, still, for lots of people.

shazeep · #10 11-30-2015, 10:54 AM

ok i'm seeing that most of the rest of your many words up there are still pushing "salvation is not of works," which i have already agreed to, so i think i am done. I do not disagree. One is free to accept whatever interpretation their heart tells them is correct; i cannot "prove" you are wrong. But i can demonstrate that it is in the choosing that one's heart is revealed, and that is what God judges.

Faith is what saves; and faith without works is not faith. Therefore, works reflect what one's faith is actually in, regardless of what they may claim it is in. The Spanish Inquisition claimed to be zealous for God, too.