Who Is The Holy Spirit?

[Luke]

Originally Posted by seekerman

I say the verses are talking about Jesus and His God and Father, God the Father.

Who are you saying the verses, not just a snippet in the discourse, but verse 15, identifying the 'who' is that's the firstborn of every creature, and the following associated verses are talking about? Maybe we agree and just don't realize it. We've applied my view to the passage and it seems to be found lacking in your opinion, now let's apply your view and see if it fits the passage...or if it's found lacking also. Let's find out who 'him' is in the entirety of the passage. Who is the image of the invisible God and who is the 'him' in the following verses, including verse 16.

This should be an interesting discussion.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

That passage is talking about Jesus.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Who created the world trade center, the architect or the builders who built from the architect's plans?

The builders did it. All the architect was show them what he wanted made.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The builders did it. All the architect was show them what he wanted made.

The builders couldn't have created it without the architect.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Luke

That passage is talking about Jesus.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Now, taking it one verse at a time,is it your position the image is Jesus and the invisible God is also Jesus and that the firstborn of every creature is the visible Jesus and not the invisible Jesus?

I'm not trying to belittle your position, but as you find problems with my view, I think there are also problems with your view.....if I understand your position correctly.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by seekerman

The builders couldn't have created it without the architect.

So?

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

So?

So, the building would never had been created without the architect. The builders wouldn't have know what to create without the creation plan of the architect.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Now, taking it one verse at a time,is it your position the image is Jesus and the invisible God is also Jesus and that the firstborn of every creature is the visible Jesus and not the invisible Jesus?

I'm not trying to belittle your position, but as you find problems with my view, I think there are also problems with your view.....if I understand your position correctly.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Please explain the problem you see here because in all honesty i cant see the conflict?

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Luke

Please explain the problem you see here because in all honesty i cant see the conflict?

Assuming that I correctly presented your view, the problem would be God being the firstborn of every creature.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Assuming that I correctly presented your view, the problem would be God being the firstborn of every creature.

Ok isee where you are coming from i think.

Let me ask you a question. Do you understand how i find fault with your perspective as i laid it out in the previous post? Do you consider it to be a logical arguement to your perspective? not saying you agree with it but do you consider the arguement logical?

As to the question of His being the first born this is obviously not speaking of His birth here on earth otherwise how could He have been before all things or how could He have created all things? It also is obviously not speaking of a literal birth in the distant past sometime otherwise He again is not before all things also this view would mean that there is of necessity a female goddess running around somewhere which would be to espouce a doctrine of polytheism. So if it is not speaking of a literal birth it stands to reason that the term firstborn is to be taken as a postion rather than a cronological order. In other words this is being used to signify that Jesus is above all others He is to have the preimer spot the highest and loftiest place. Just as with the old testament laws of inheiritance the firstborn got the best and most of all things. So with Jesus He there is none higher than He.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by seekerman

So, the building would never had been created without the architect. The builders wouldn't have know what to create without the creation plan of the architect.

That doesnt make the architect "the Creator". Btw they could not have built it without someone feeding them or without transportation