Ancient Monarchians and Trinitarians

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I read it, and read it to my family during our devotional time. I also corresponded with Paul Hattaway for a while. And lastly, just recently, I had the privilege of hearing Bro Hun speak in person at Christ Church here in Nashville.

My wife and I have a burden for China, and know we will go there one day.

Sir, isn't Paul Hattaway a Trinitarian?

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Willy Jacks

We really can't compare the undergroud church in China with the Modalist doctrine in history. The Church in China will go down in history as being one of the greatest stories of the Christian church.

Absolutely amazing and awesome! Superlatives don't do credit to describing what God has wrought in China! And now THEY are sending out missionaries and being very effective in converting Muslims.

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Willy Jacks

What proof do you have? Honestly, if everybody made claims without validating them what kind of mess do you think history would look like? This is one of my biggest concerns with some Oneness writers (not all).

You are arguing something from a logical proof that wouldn't even support your own position. For everything you ask me to prove, there is something that I could ask you to prove. And we would both end up using the exact same logic against each other. Once again, you really can't "prove" anything from history, or from historical commentators (on either side of an issue), because invariably, the commentary is going to be skewed toward the bias of the historian.

Originally Posted by Willy Jacks

Let me ask you this, If I wrote a book and said that Jesus did not exsist, the story was made up 2000 years ago, and gave a large list of proof, but my proof could not be validated, what would your response be?

Your argument here has weakened your own position. For instance, trinitarians have written MANY books claiming that Clement of Rome (AD 95), Polycarp, and Ignatius were "trinitarian".... my question is: where is the proof? Is a trinitarian doctrine extant in any of their writings? Can you "prove" they were trinitarian? If you cannot, what is your response going to be?

Again, the problem is trying to prove something from writings and history that is not inspired from God. There is no developed doctrine of the trinity in any of the original writings of the apostles in scripture. The only thing I have to do is open a few NT passages to prove that all of the apostles and NT writers were monarchian.

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Willy Jacks

Would you say that would be accepted in the Oneness circles today?

I know of at least a couple of writers who believe this.

Originally Posted by BobDylan

You are arguing something from a logical proof that wouldn't even support your own position. For everything you ask me to prove, there is something that I could ask you to prove. And we would both end up using the exact same logic against each other. Once again, you really can't "prove" anything from history, or from historical commentators (on either side of an issue), because invariably, the commentary is going to be skewed toward the bias of the historian.

This is a way to get around not having the proof you need to validate you claims. I disagree, as most people will. History is the only way we can prove or disprove the past. If history worked in your favor, you most certainly would use it.

Originally Posted by BobDylan

Your argument here has weakened your own position. For instance, trinitarians have written MANY books claiming that Clement of Rome (AD 95), Polycarp, and Ignatius were "trinitarian".... my question is: where is the proof? Is a trinitarian doctrine extant in any of their writings? Can you "prove" they were trinitarian? If you cannot, what is your response going to be?

I have study enough material to understand what trinty folks mean when they claim that the church father writings leaned towards the "trinity" language, even though the title or full doctrine haven't been developed at that time. I also know that because the title "trinity" was not coined until a later date does not mean the doctrine wasn't taught by them. This isn't proof. I think a lot of people misunderstand their stance on this.

Originally Posted by BobDylan

Again, the problem is trying to prove something from writings and history that is not inspired from God. There is no developed doctrine of the trinity in any of the original writings of the apostles in scripture. The only thing I have to do is open a few NT passages to prove that all of the apostles and NT writers were monarchian.

I agree, they were not inspired. My understanding is that the only inspired writings were the original letters, so this argument is invalid. I know a lot of Oneness pastor that would agree with this statement.

But we must confess that the church that chose which books were inspired and put them into the Bible were not of Oneness faith. As a Oneness believe I never understood this, or why it never gets addressed.

Originally Posted by BobDylan

I know of at least a couple of writers who believe this.

But.... would any Oneness pastor allow someone that teaches dualism to preach at their pulpit?

If you know a couple of writers that believe this than they are not Oneness. They are two-atarians.

Originally Posted by Felicity

Absolutely amazing and awesome! Superlatives don't do credit to describing what God has wrought in China! And now THEY are sending out missionaries and being very effective in converting Muslims.

I looked up their statement of faith. They are trinitatians. :

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Willy Jacks

I looked up their statement of faith. They are trinitatians. :

If you're talking about P. Hattaway, I know.

Amazing isn't it? The work some of these (quote) trinitarian (unquote) pentecostals are doing for God?!

Originally Posted by Felicity

If you're talking about P. Hattaway, I know.

Amazing isn't it? The work some of these (quote) trinitarian (unquote) pentecostals are doing for God?!

Hi Felicity, I was talking about your statement about the China Churches. I guess, if you think its ok that the work being done is accredited to the Trinity Church?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Willy Jacks

Hi Felicity, I was talking about your statement about the China Churches. I guess, if you think its ok that the work being done is accredited to the Trinity Church?

So it's not being accredited to the Lord?