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  #171  
Old 06-06-2009, 11:13 AM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Re: Is baptism essential unto salvation?

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Originally Posted by TulsaDavid View Post
I too think we need to be careful not to read too much into this statement. The simple sense of that verse would be that Jesus went down into the water, hence came up from it, as opposed to conjecturing what he "may have" done.

As to history:

Perhaps you've read myriad regurgitations of the 1955 Time Magazine account of a baptism around 100 A.D. of Publius Decius. A web page on History of Baptism recites it, and a few years ago it was discussed on FCF (I'm quite sure it was before NFCF).

Since all websites quote each other, repetition does not necessarily substantiate.

But, fortunately I found and purchased a December 5, 1955 issue of Time Magazine off Ebay. This was part of an article on Protestant Revivalism.
David of Tulsa, what reference(s) does the Time article give for the account of this baptism? What primary document does it cite?
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  #172  
Old 06-06-2009, 11:17 AM
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TulsaDavid TulsaDavid is offline
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Re: Is baptism essential unto salvation?

Mizpeh, the author didn't say. That was disappointing. I called Time, and they didn't have info on how to reach him or anyone connected with him (I'd have to dig out the magazine to remember his name ... a few years have passed).

As is the case in life, other matters took my attention away. I don't doubt the reciting, but in the interest of transparency, the article did not disclose it. So as time permits, I dig.
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  #173  
Old 06-06-2009, 11:25 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Is baptism essential unto salvation?

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Originally Posted by TulsaDavid View Post
I too think we need to be careful not to read too much into this statement. The simple sense of that verse would be that Jesus went down into the water, hence came up from it, as opposed to conjecturing what he "may have" done.
Bro David, it doesn't say that Jesus was dunked completely under water. It just says that Jesus came up out of the water. I was fishing once, waded in, and after I was done I came up out of the water. I wasn't completely submerged.

But the point is... how would Jesus being "dunked" at 30 years of age "fulfill all righteousness"? Where does the Law command a 30 year old man to be dunked under water???

It doesn't.

We do read that the priesthood was to be consecrated at 30 years of age,
Numbers 4:23
23From thirty years old and upward until fifty years old shalt thou number them; all that enter in to perform the service, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation.
And if this is why Jesus sought John for Baptism we have to understand how this consecration was to be performed. The Scriptures tell us,
Numbers 8:5-7
5And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
6Take the Levites from among the children of Israel, and cleanse them.
7And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them, ...
Thus Christ fulfilled all righteousness and assumed the role of our priest and intercessor by standing in the Jordan and allowing John to "splash", "spatter", or "sprinkle" water upon him according to the Law's requirements.
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  #174  
Old 06-06-2009, 11:33 AM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Re: Is baptism essential unto salvation?

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Originally Posted by TulsaDavid View Post
Mizpeh, the author didn't say. That was disappointing. I called Time, and they didn't have info on how to reach him or anyone connected with him (I'd have to dig out the magazine to remember his name ... a few years have passed).

As is the case in life, other matters took my attention away. I don't doubt the reciting, but in the interest of transparency, the article did not disclose it. So as time permits, I dig.
I've been 'googling' but haven't found anything yet. I'll continue to google.
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His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

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  #175  
Old 06-06-2009, 11:38 AM
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Timmy Timmy is offline
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Re: Is baptism essential unto salvation?

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Originally Posted by TulsaDavid View Post
Almost thou persuadest me to be an answerer.


Now I'm wondering if there's a #3: gives you more time to think of a good answer!
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  #176  
Old 06-06-2009, 11:43 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Is baptism essential unto salvation?

Look at the account of the Philippian jailor. We read,
Acts 16:31-33
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Notice that Paul and Silas give a Bible study to all that were in the jailor's house. Notice also that at the same our of the night - after their preaching - the jailor washes their stripes. Keep in mind, this is now well after Midnight. When the jailor washed their stripes in his home the implements would have been towels and a wash basin of water. The next thing we read, he and all his, were water baptized.

Now, some would have us believe that Paul and Silas took this Philippian jailor and his family tromping out into the dark Philippian wilderness to find a river for submersion well after midnight.

I see something else.

I see the jailor washing their stripes in his home using towels and a wash basin. The water was there... in the wash basin. The basin of water used to wash the dirt from Paul and Silas' stripes was the same basin of water used to wash away the jailor's sins. We see a very beautiful exchange here, the jailor washes their wounded bodies... they wash the jailor's wounded soul.

All provided in a humble home by a humble wash basin of water.
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  #177  
Old 06-06-2009, 11:45 AM
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TulsaDavid TulsaDavid is offline
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Re: Is baptism essential unto salvation?

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Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
Now I'm wondering if there's a #3: gives you more time to think of a good answer!
Everyone has the freedom to be a wonderer.
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  #178  
Old 06-06-2009, 11:45 AM
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Steve Epley Steve Epley is offline
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Re: Is baptism essential unto salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Look at the account of the Philippian jailer. We read,
Acts 16:31-33
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Notice that Paul and Silas give a Bible study to all that were in the jailer's house. Notice also that at the same our of the night - after their preaching - the jailor washes their stripes. Keep in mind, this is now well after Midnight. When the jailor washed their stripes in his home the implements would have been towels and a wash basin of water. The next thing we read, he and all his, were water baptized.

Now, some would have us believe that Paul and Silas took this Philippian jailer and his family tromping out into the dark Philippian wilderness to find a river for submersion well after midnight.

I see something else. I see the jailer washing their stripes in his home using towels and a wash basin. The water was there... in the wash basin. The basin of water used to wash the dirt from Paul and Silas' stripes was the same basin of water used to wash away the jailer's sins. We see a very beautiful exchange here, the jailer washes their wounded bodies... they wash the jailer's wounded soul.

All provided in a humble home by a basin of water.
You have a great imagination you might try your hand at fiction? Forgive me you are already doing that.
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  #179  
Old 06-06-2009, 11:48 AM
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TulsaDavid TulsaDavid is offline
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Re: Is baptism essential unto salvation?

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
All provided in a humble home by a basin of water.
It would be conjecture to assume so. Wherever the NT comes closest to connecting dots between baptism and water, it's full water and immersion.
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  #180  
Old 06-06-2009, 11:56 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Is baptism essential unto salvation?

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Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
You have a great imagination you might try your hand at fiction? Forgive me you are already doing that.
Indeed, I've written some fiction. I really enjoy writing. Anyone can tell that from some of my long and drawn out posts.

Sadly, I've discovered that most religionists lack imagination.

In regards to the Philippian jailor account. It's not my imagination that you imagine him and his family being led by Paul, tromping out into the dark Philippian wilderness to find a river for complete submersion.

It's not my imagination that a wash basin of water was present.

Also, it's not my imagination that the jailor used the wash basin to wash their wounds.

The only unconnected dot would be the washing of the jailor's soul. It's more than fitting if the jailor's soul was washed from the same basin of water used to wash the stripes of Paul and Silas.
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