Timmy, I found this quote by Jason Dulle discussing "person", it's a little complex and intellectual, but you seem like a smart collie so I think you might get something out of it. WOOF!
The "nature-praying" theory will not work because it falsely assumes that Christ's human nature is a separate human person. There can be no equivocation of a nature and a person, however. A nature is the generic substance that is common to all men, being that which makes humanity what it is; a nature is a set of essential characteristics or properties which mark off what sort of thing an individual is. A person, however, is immaterial conscious substance, a personality; a person is a particular individual who consists of a certain nature, or the particularization of a generic substance. A person is the concrete conscious self, the ego, defining who it is who is of a particular substance.13 It takes a concrete person (hypostasis) to actualize the generic nature (physis).14 In the case of Christ, the person who actualizes the human nature is God, not a separate human person. God came to exist as man by uniting human nature to His divine person, acquiring a human existence complete with all the properties inherent to human nature (human soul, spirit, mind, consciousness, etc.), not by assuming a human person. Because He assumed a human nature and not a human person Jesus' humanity is not an individual person in itself, but is human nature individualized (hypostasized) by the divine person.
Was God a person before the incarnation? Jason seems to think so, mentioning "His divine person". This fits his first description of person, "immaterial conscious substance, a personality". His distinguishing "person" and "human nature" makes sense. Woof.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Was God a person before the incarnation? Jason seems to think so, mentioning "His divine person". This fits his first description of person, "immaterial conscious substance, a personality". His distinguishing "person" and "human nature" makes sense. Woof.
Yes exactly! And so man is also an immaterial conscious substance, combined with a human nature
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
I personally don't understand all the oneness dialogue when it goes into hypostasis and other greek terms. I understand oneness as God the Father being the spirit of Christ. The Holy Ghost being the soul of Christ and Jesus the Son being the body of Christ. I guess I subscribe to the empty shell theory. Can someone please explain what is wrong with this view of oneness?
I personally don't understand all the oneness dialogue when it goes into hypostasis and other greek terms. I understand oneness as God the Father being the spirit of Christ. The Holy Ghost being the soul of Christ and Jesus the Son being the body of Christ. I guess I subscribe to the empty shell theory. Can someone please explain what is wrong with this view of oneness?
It makes your savior that died on the cross an impersonal "it"...where as others view the Son not as a mere body but a Person who died for us.
Also what is a soul? How are Father and Holy Spirit not both the same Spirit?
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
It makes your savior that died on the cross an impersonal "it"...where as others view the Son not as a mere body but a Person who died for us.
Also what is a soul? How are Father and Holy Spirit not both the same Spirit?
I don't see how the body, soul, spirit view makes Jesus Christ impersonal. He is Jehova embodied. The holy spirit or soul of christ is the word and the conscience of christ the man and distinct from the omnipresent impersonal spirit in my view.
Do you think christ had a body, soul, spirit distinct from the holy spirit and God the Father?
Last edited by Dedicated Mind; 04-24-2010 at 05:32 PM.
I personally don't understand all the oneness dialogue when it goes into hypostasis and other greek terms. I understand oneness as God the Father being the spirit of Christ. The Holy Ghost being the soul of Christ and Jesus the Son being the body of Christ. I guess I subscribe to the empty shell theory. Can someone please explain what is wrong with this view of oneness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
It makes your savior that died on the cross an impersonal "it"...where as others view the Son not as a mere body but a Person who died for us.
Also what is a soul? How are Father and Holy Spirit not both the same Spirit?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind
I don't see how the body, soul, spirit view makes Jesus Christ impersonal. He is Jehova embodied. The holy spirit or soul of christ is the word and the conscience of christ the man and distinct from the omnipresent impersonal spirit in my view.
Do you think christ had a body, soul, spirit distinct from the holy spirit and God the Father?
You said Jesus the Son is the body of Christ...a mere body is not a person. In fact you characterized it as
Quote:
I guess I subscribe to the empty shell theory
asking for opinions where this is wrong. It's wrong because it makes the Son into a body, not a person. So when the Son prayed it was an empty shell of a body praying to another part..which of those there is a person? The Father which is the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Ghost, which is the soul of Christ or the Son, which is the body of Christ
What do I think? I think Christ is a Person with a Body....Christ and Son are not 2 different things. The Son HAS a body not the son IS the body of someone else.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
You said Jesus the Son is the body of Christ...a mere body is not a person. In fact you characterized it as
asking for opinions where this is wrong. It's wrong because it makes the Son into a body, not a person. So when the Son prayed it was an empty shell of a body praying to another part..which of those there is a person? The Father which is the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Ghost, which is the soul of Christ or the Son, which is the body of Christ
What do I think? I think Christ is a Person with a Body....Christ and Son are not 2 different things. The Son HAS a body not the son IS the body of someone else.
Do you think the Son has a body, soul and spirit distinct from God the Father and the Holy Spirit
Do you think the Son has a body, soul and spirit distinct from God the Father and the Holy Spirit
The Son has a body, the Son is not a body. The Son is a Person with a body. The Son has a Human nature which is distinct from the Divine nature and at the same time has the Divine nature of the Father. This is what we refer to as Jesus having 2 natures or being both God and man.
Did you read the quote by Jason?
BTW I asked this earlier
What is a soul? How are Father and Holy Spirit not the Same spirit? You said the Father is the Spirit of Jesus and the Holy Ghost is the soul
Also, is Jesus truly 100% human? If so what besides a mere body makes Him human?
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
The Son has a body, the Son is not a body. The Son is a Person with a body.
You haven't answered my question is the person of the son distinct from the Holy Spirit? I say no. I believe the Holy Spirit is the person of the son.
[/QUOTE]The Son has a Human nature which is distinct from the Divine nature and at the same time has the Divine nature of the Father. This is what we refer to as Jesus having 2 natures or being both God and man.[/QUOTE]
I believe the Holy Spirit is both the human nature of Christ and the divine nature of God in one. If the son were the color red(body) and the Father were the color blue(spirit), the holy spirit would be the color purple(soul), the essence of both the body and the spirit.
[/QUOTE]Did you read the quote by Jason?[/QUOTE]
I didn't understand the quote by Jason fully.
[/QUOTE]BTW I asked this earlier
What is a soul? [/QUOTE]
I believe the soul is the identity of the body in the realm of the spirit, including mind, heart, emotion, conscience and will.
[/QUOTE]How are Father and Holy Spirit not the Same spirit? You said the Father is the Spirit of Jesus and the Holy Ghost is the soul[/QUOTE]
The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinct. The Holy Spirit is the presence of Jesus in a particular place, while the Father is the omnipresent spirit of the Father.
[/QUOTE]Also, is Jesus truly 100% human? If so what besides a mere body makes Him human?[/QUOTE]
Jesus was 100% human with the fulness of God dwelling in him. He is much more than human spiritually. not physically.
Now tell me how is the soul and spirit of Christ distinct from the Holy Spirit or Father?
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