Hate Of Reformed Theology

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The Reformed tradition does have its advocates who seem to take the whole Predestination thing too far. Since we are dealing with a fundamental paradox here, we need to approach the issue with a sense of balance.

For me, the thing that most OPs seem to "hate" about Reformed theology seems to be the issue that God is Sovereign. God chooses His saints, not your dress code check lists. That puts a lot of OP pastors out of work.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by crakjak

AMEN. Calvin may have lived in a difficult time, yet he condoned murder, even encouraged it. If you believe God "hates" sinners, as REFORMED teaches, why not join him in murdering them sooner rather than later? Burn 'em at the stake, since they are to burn anyway?

God has not created billions of His image, as fuel for a torture chamber or for kindling, expand REFORMED to cover all of those that Jesus came to save, then we have starting point.

Oh please. When people say "Calvinism" they aren't staking their record for Calvin's. It represents ideas that expand even beyond John Calvin.

There are ugly skeletons in all theological movements. Study up on your Church History -- including Modern Pentecostalism.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Their portrayal of God as a loving, gracious pursuer toward the underserving is only for a few not for all.

A God who arbitrarily chooses people to go to hell based on a whim? What kind of love is that? Not the kind we find in 1 Cor 13. What kind of justice is that? If it's unjust by our standards then it must be wrong since God's standards of justice are much higher and purer than ours.

I get the portrayal of God as a loving, gracious pursuer from the Story.

How do I reconcile that "he shows mercy on whom He will show mercy?" I can't pretend to understand God's sense of justice. Nor do I fully prescribe to the length of five-point TULIP Calvinists. I lean more on their understanding of God's sovereignty though -- and that does seem cruel or mean. And who am I to judge God's ways anyway?

I did recently listen to an incredible sermon ("Is God In Control?") by Tim Keller that took probably what was theologically Calvinism, but preached it on a faith/heart level into a message that broke through my heart and gave me great peace.

As far as this statement:
If it's unjust by our standards then it must be wrong since God's

Really think about what you're saying. Do you really believe that? Because we find something unjust, God must find it MORE unjust? That's not even a logical statement, let alone one considered by a God with divine prerogative.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Oh please. When people say "Calvinism" they aren't staking their record for Calvin's. It represents ideas that expand even beyond John Calvin.

There are ugly skeletons in all theological movements. Study up on your Church History -- including Modern Pentecostalism.

It's often been said that what Luther and Calvin did was to "return the Church to Augustine..."

Most of the debates surrounding Reformed Theology - both in the 16th Century and the 21st Century - can also be found in Augustine's debates with Pelagius.

It all really comes down to that age old debate between Free Will and Determinism. Even the pre-Christian pagan philosophers of Greece and Rome disputed these points.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by pelathais

It's often been said that what Luther and Calvin did was to "return the Church to Augustine..."

Most of the debates surrounding Reformed Theology - both in the 16th Century and the 21st Century - can also be found in Augustine's debates with Pelagius.

It all really comes down to that age old debate between Free Will and Determinism. Even the pre-Christian pagan philosophers of Greece and Rome disputed these points.

Pel, I too struggle with the more 'orthodox' view of Calvinism (TULIP), at least on all points. But I look back and realize we've done just what Calvin predicted, which is point the issue of salvation back on us, and the story less about God and more about us.

The issue of free-will and predestination is an interesting one to me, and one easy to dismiss. But after taking a few history, humanities and philosophy courses -- it became apparent to me that what sends us to shivers in the 21st Century West, was not that shocking of a message to the rest of the world for the majority of time. The issue of election, for example, would not have bothered the far majority of antiquity. The form of free-will we have today is sort of nuanced, reflective of humanism, capitalism, selfishness even. The more I thought about this, the more I realized my immediate shirking away from the idea of God "working all things for my good" may be a contemporary sensibility instead of heresy.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The Reformed tradition does have its advocates who seem to take the whole Predestination thing too far. Since we are dealing with a fundamental paradox here, we need to approach the issue with a sense of balance.

For me, the thing that most OPs seem to "hate" about Reformed theology seems to be the issue that God is Sovereign. God chooses His saints, not your dress code check lists. That puts a lot of OP pastors out of work.

As much as I detest legalistic dictatorship, saying God simply ordains some for hell is just as wrong, if not beyond that, to me. I never said I hate reformed theology, either. lol.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by mfblume

As much as I detest legalistic dictatorship, saying God simply ordains some for hell is just as wrong, if not beyond that, to me. I never said I hate reformed theology, either. lol.

Blume, not all who "buy into" the Sovereignty of God understand the "double predestination" idea of God damning people to hell. But if it were true, nor do I feel in a place to judge the Almighty. Who am I?

I too have a philosophical discomfort with the notion that God would select some for hell. But I take great comfort in that he elected me, he called to me, he showed grace to me.

I'd flirt more with "New Calvinism" but even then, not really caring about fitting either label. I've learned much from my Calvinist brothers in the last year. Much. They've taught me a great deal about our gracious father. The idea of a mean tyrant is ironic, because it's a sharp contrast to how I saw God before. His work and act is that much more gracious.

[Acoustic]

Originally Posted by mfblume

As much as I detest legalistic dictatorship, saying God simply ordains some for hell is just as wrong, if not beyond that, to me. I never said I hate reformed theology, either. lol.

That God "ordains" some to Hell is a common misunderstanding of Reformed/Calvinist theology. God does not need to ordain any go to Hell as we are all already going to Hell.

It also does not say that God "arbitrarily" picks some to save. Anyone can see from a basic reading of God's Word that he is not arbitrary in any way.

I don't expect anyone who is not Reformed to become Reformed as it is really offense to our western way of thinking - to say that we have no choice in our salvation tears at everything we believe.

This was my reaction and the reaction of my wife and is the reaction of my non-reformed friends, yet after several years of fighting it I have come to taste the sweetness of what it means to be justified by God's grace - to know that none who are given to Christ will be lost and be able to rest (be still and know that I am God) in the Sabbath that is Jesus Christ.

I better stop now or I will keep on going.

SDG

[UnTraditional]

Great discussion. Thanks to all who are taking part. Please keep it coming.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Socialite

I get the portrayal of God as a loving, gracious pursuer from the Story.

God is not a respecter of persons. So then why would he chose one over the other to save?

How do I reconcile that "he shows mercy on whom He will show mercy?" I can't pretend to understand God's sense of justice. Nor do I fully prescribe to the length of five-point TULIP Calvinists. I lean more on their understanding of God's sovereignty though -- and that does seem cruel or mean. And who am I to judge God's ways anyway?

I believe that God is sovereign. I believe in predestination according to foreknowledge.

God gave us a conscience to know the difference between good and evil. We understand when something is not right. We can judge whether a doctrine portrays God the way He portrays himself in his word.

I did recently listen to an incredible sermon ("Is God In Control?") by Tim Keller that took probably what was theologically Calvinism, but preached it on a faith/heart level into a message that broke through my heart and gave me great peace.

I've been blessed by some things that Piper has preached but that doesn't really justify TULIP. I firmly believe that God is in control. But I also believe that he allows us to choose to obey him or disobey him. I don't find this to be in conflict whatsoever.

As far as this statement:
If it's unjust by our standards then it must be wrong since God's standards of justice are much higher and purer than ours.
,
Really think about what you're saying. Do you really believe that? Because we find something unjust, God must find it MORE unjust? That's not even a logical statement, let alone one considered by a God with divine prerogative.

All of God's prerogatives are dictated by his nature. He cannot go against his own nature. He is just, therefore he cannot be unjust. What I meant by the if something is unjust by our standard, then it must be wrong to God as well since he set the standards of right and wrong and placed that knowledge within us.