Anybody Read This ?

[n david]

Let me first say, I enjoy your posts and most of the time agree with you. It's not often where I will find myself disagreeing with something you post. I want to point this out because I tend to use sarcasm, and while I will try to keep from doing so here, if I do, I mean no disrespect to you.

I have to break this up into a few posts, because it is long.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I’m not convinced that Contemplative Prayer, yadda, yadda, yadda, is altogether “unbiblical”. Yes, I’ve read some books on the subject of more meditative forms of prayer (what I believe is biblically called “meditation”) and they have incorporated strange ideas from other traditions. However, spiritual meditation, stillness, and listening for God to speak or to enter into the deeper dimensions of His presence are perfectly biblical. And being Pentecostal, we of all people should know this. In fact, “tongues”, is known as “ecstatic utterance”. Historically tongues often accompanied what traditional churches called “spiritual ecstasy”, a trance like state wherein visions and spiritual giftings such as prophesy, healing, tongues, dreams, etc. are found. Pentecostals almost experience this daily (if deeply engaged in a Spirit filled prayer life).

Speaking in tongues and trying to create the "divine spark" within ourselves are not the same. Contemplative prayer, centering prayer, prayer formation, Lectio Divina are not found in the scripture, they are only found in eastern religions like Buddhism, Zen and other mystical spiritual practices.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Notice something that Paul wrote:
I Corinthians 14:13-15
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue
pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an
[unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding
is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the
spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will
sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding
also.

Paul draws a distinction between praying “with the spirit” (the inner man) and praying “with the understanding” (the mind). Notice that when praying with the spirit, a man’s mind (or understanding) is silent (unfruitful).

I don't believe this is what Paul is saying at all. What Paul is saying is when he speaks in an unknown tongue, his mind doesn't know what he is saying. That's why the last part of the verse says, I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understaning also...

Look at the beginning of this passage for context: "For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit."

This is what is meant by "my understanding is unfruitful;" not that his mind is silent, but that his mind does not understand what is being said.

Originally Posted by Aquila

My first experience like this was during an altar call about 7 years ago. The power of God filled the sanctuary to the point wherein people were laying all over the floor speaking in tongues, crying, praising, moaning, repenting and weeping in supplications. I remember coming off the platform only to lose my ability to stand. I “fell out” on the floor next to the altar and there I lay for nearly an hour speaking in tongues and weeping. All I remember during that period of time was the awe inspiring awareness that God was indeed… present. My spirit had never felt more at peace, safer, calmer, and my mind was so quiet it seemed the time passed in what seemed like mere moments. It was so powerful; I needed help out to my car. There wasn’t a booming voice, a prophesy, or a message… there was only the power of His “presence”. And His mere presence calmed every fear and opened my soul to receive whatever was God’s will regarding my life and my future. It was a most blessed state.

Since then I have sought to enter into that realm of prayer many times. I find it easier to enter into that state by focusing upon God, a work of Jesus, or an attribute of God and/or Jesus (they are one). Sometimes I’ll still my heart and focus on a biblical truth or a verse of Scripture. Soon, I’m lost in the Spirit and I come out refreshed and assured of God’s reality in a way that transcends my human intellect. Sometimes I pray in tongues. Sometimes I hear the tongues in my head. Sometimes I’ve interpreted the tongues. Sometimes I sense nothing but my being and God’s presence. The silence speaks more than mere words can describe. And when realities concerning having the Holy Ghost residing in me began to pour forth… I realized the reality behind being “one spirit with the Lord” (I Corinthians 6:17).

I do not believe this is the same as what we're talking about. I've also been "slain in the spirit" before. Not once was I trying to center on myself or create a divine spark within myself. It was of God, not myself. This is the error of contemplative/centering prayer.

Nor is simply being still while reading the Bible or praying silently within the same as contemplative prayer.

Originally Posted by Aquila

There have been studies in those who speak in tongues. If you search YouTube for “Speaking in Tongues” and “Neuroscience” you’ll find a news segment dedicated to the research. Those studying brainwaves of those who spoke in tongues (or in the Spirit) found that the areas of the brain that control speech are active… but not those areas that control cognitive reasoning. In other words… it’s not the individual praying in the Spirit who is praying, something else is praying through them. Although the researcher is hesitant to affirm that this validates speaking in tongues, the researcher testifies that those who speak in tongues are truly experiencing a truly unique form of speech wherein the brain isn’t communicating thought. We know that as Paul wrote, the spirit is praying although the mind is not bearing fruitful thought.

Again, I do not believe Paul was saying the mind was silent -- only that the mind cannot understand what is being said.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Another interesting texts that has helped me transcend mere “mental prayer” is found in the book of Acts:

Acts 10:9-11
On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and
drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to
pray about the sixth hour: And he became very
hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready,
he fell into a TRANCE, And saw heaven opened, and a
certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great
sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

Acts 11:1-5
And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea
heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that
were of the circumcision contended with him,
Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst
eat with them. But Peter rehearsed [the matter] from
the beginning, and expounded [it] by order unto them,
saying, I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a
TRANCE I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had
been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners;
and it came even to me:

Then we see the testimony of Paul:

Acts 22:10-18
And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go
into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things
which are appointed for thee to do. And when I
could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the
hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
And one Ananias, a devout man according to the
law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt
[there, ] Came unto me, and stood, and said unto
me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I
looked up upon him. And he said, The God of our
fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will,
and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his
mouth. For thou shalt be his witness unto all men
of what thou hast seen and heard. And now why
tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy
sins, calling on the name of the Lord. And it came
to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even
while I prayed in the temple, I was in a TRANCE; And
saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly
out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony
concerning me.

Yes, it's possible, to enter a "trance-like" state of prayer. In this meditative state of spirit called a "trance" we can hear directly from Heaven. We can receive direction, visions, dreams, and prophetic glimpses of God's plan. We can find ourselves transported to the very throne room of Heaven (John the Revelator) and see angelic realities. This is something that has been abandoned in our more "enlightened" culture. Sadly, the culture isn't more "enlightened"... the culture is more spiritually dead to the things of Spirit.

The word for "trance" translates into "amazement" or "bewilderment." It's used in Mark 5:42, Mark 16:8, Luke 5:26 and other verses where people were astonished or amazed. What we view as a trance-like state is not likely what Peter was experiencing here. Yes, people have received visions or dreams, but trance in the scripture is not the same as we know it today.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Christians today are so cantankerous. Anything that appears “supernatural” or overtly spiritual is often heavily criticized by the “traditional” Christians. And trust me, men make lots of money in their books and sermons and various “topical series” combating the “non-traditional”. Being a Oneness believer, I’m not afraid of being accused of heresy. And being a “tongue talker” I’m not afraid of deeply spiritual states and experiences, even when men want to criticize.

Yet, as with most things… one has to experience it for themselves to truly know what the issue truly is. You might remember my thread about my “talk with God”. That was one instance wherein I was praying so deeply and focusing in on why we are divided and what makes us holy. And yes, what I wrote in that post was the response that I felt pouring into me from across the shores of the realm of the Spirit. It truly revolutionized my entire Christian walk. My experiences regarding God’s presence, God’s indwelling Spirit (in me), etc. have also redefined what it means to be a born again Christian for me. Meditating on Christ’s words concerning Himself being the True Vine and we being the branches has forever changed the way I view the Christian life. Especially when I felt the Spirit whisper into my soul, “Notice, my son, the vine and the branches are a single organism. The branches are living extensions of the vine. Be ye therefore, an extension of ME.”

I do not fear the supernatural. What I fear and fight against is the entwining of eastern religions and other false doctrine with scripture. This is what I see in the writings of Foster and Merton, which now has bled into evangelical circles where now John Piper, Beth Moore, Willow Creek, Saddleback, Mars Hill and many others are using philosophies brought from Catholicism, Buddhism and Zen and are trying to wrap it in scripture, perverting the word of God.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Historically this desire for “oneness” with God is the foundational quest of what is often called “Christian mysticism”. And interestingly enough those “mystics” down through Christian history often experienced “spiritual ecstasy”, visions, angelic visitations, tongues, healing, and powerful prophetic dreams. These individuals were often deeply entrenched in the traditional churches of their day. However, their experiences would have branded them Charismatic/Pentecostals today.

I admittedly haven't read about many mystics or what they believed. There are two I've heard of and do not agree with, St John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avila -- both of which are used to promote contemplative prayer.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

There is an ancient Christian proverb that is normally attributed to St. Athanasius (although, it is most likely older than Athanasius):

"God became man so that man might become God."

This doesn’t mean that we become “gods”. It simply means that we partake in the divine nature of God Himself, and as a result, we are conformed into the very image and likeness of Christ. To the point wherein we feel His very heart beating in our breasts, hear His voice in our mouths, and our very shadows have nail scarred hands. In this we become, branches of the True Vine. Living extensions of Jesus Himself.

I first read this quote a few weeks, perhaps a month, ago in a different thread and was going to respond but became busy and forgot about it. I looked this quote up and found it's in the Roman Catholic Church Catechism - CCC 460.

"The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature." "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."

Now...thus far I have no issue with what has been written. I do like your reference to the Vine and Branches; however, the quote and CCC 460 take a turn I don't agree with.

"For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."

I cannot agree with this. There are two places I read in the Bible where someone tried to be like God and both ended in misery and separation from God. Satan wanted to be as God and was cast down; Eve ate the fruit after the serpent told her the reason God didn't want her to eat the fruit was because she would be like God. Adam and Eve were sent out from the Garden after eating the fruit.

We do not become gods -- with a big G or little g. God did not become man so we could become some other god. God became man so He could redeem us from the sin caused when the first man tried becoming like God!

Yes, He is the Vine and we are the branches. Notice, He is the Vine and we the branches. It is not He is the Vine and we are Vines also.

Originally Posted by Aquila

This “holiness” is otherworldly. It is deeply spiritual and personal. And it transcends any man made “standards” one could invent or compile from Scripture. It demands taking part in perfection, the perfection of God Himself. It means putting on His righteousness and holiness, not our own. And this state can only be approached and accepted in the realm of absolute, unadulterated… grace.

It is a path of transformation. The path that conforms one into the very image and likeness of Jesus Himself. The end being… Eternal Glorification in Christ Jesus.

I agree with what you say here, and believe it is different than what CCC 460 or the quote is saying.

Originally Posted by Aquila

So… that’s my experience and the path that has been set before me. I do caution to examine any form of contemplative prayer before engaging in it. I admit, there are a lot of quacks out there. However, this doesn’t mean that all forms of contemplative prayer (meditation) are wrong or unbiblical. Again, I liken it unto what the Bible calls “meditation”. Both supplication and meditation are forms of prayer. However, in supplication we speak to God… in meditation… God speaks to us.

I agree with what is in bold. I don't believe this is the contemplative prayer I've both read and heard being pushed today -- that being the "divine spark" within ourselves, and trying to focusor illuminate our center. And any which tries to tie mysticism or eastern religion is false.

[n david]

I enjoy quotes and use them regularly in writings, leading worship or speaking. But I have found a quote that looks good and I like it until I see who says it and what their beliefs are. If they aren't in line with the Bible, I won't use them....especially in leading worship or giving a message.

Originally Posted by Aquila

"The center of the soul is God." —St. John of the Cross, The Living Flame of Love

St John of the Cross was a Spanish Mystic, Friar and Priest. I've seen him quoted by Richard Foster and others in writing about contemplative prayer, etc. I doubt you believe this quote. It's this type of belief people use for centering prayer or prayer formation. Another phrase is "Divine spark." It's rooted in mysticism and eastern religions, not on the word of God.

Originally Posted by Aquila

"The Word became flesh and the Son of God became the Son of Man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God" —St. Irenaeus, Adv Haer III 19,1

I can agree with this because, while similar to the quote by St. Athanasius, St. Irenaeus parts from that and speaks of us receiving divine sonship and becoming sons of God. That is what Paul wrote in his Epistles -- that we are adopted sons of God, not that we become God/god.

Originally Posted by Aquila

"You are not a human being having a spiritual experience—you are a spiritual being having a human experience." - Wayne Dyer

Wayne is an author who, in his books, has instructed readers to pursue self actualization - calling reliance on the self as a guide to religious experience. Consider this when quoting his words.

I've also read St. Teresa of Avila quoted by Foster and others. She was another Spanish Mystic, Carmelite nun and theologian of contemplative and mental prayer.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

And here are some Scriptures for consideration and meditation:

John 15:1-12
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Corinthians 6:17
English Standard Version (ESV)
17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

John 14:20 (ESV)
In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

John 17:11
And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

John 17:22
The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,

2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

2 Peter 1:3-4
3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature,

Ephesians 3:19
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

And what has proven to be one of the most blessed of all texts on this reality (at least for me):

Galatians 2:20 (ESV)
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

These are awesome scriptures! I believe I have all of them highlighted or underlined (some both highlighted and underlined) in my Bible.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

The word for "trance" translates into "amazement" or "bewilderment." It's used in Mark 5:42, Mark 16:8, Luke 5:26 and other verses where people were astonished or amazed. What we view as a trance-like state is not likely what Peter was experiencing here. Yes, people have received visions or dreams, but trance in the scripture is not the same as we know it today.

I disagree. I believe that a trancelike state is a rather normal state wherein the conscious mind (the soul) is silenced and the subconscious ("inner man"/spirit) is opened. I believe this is designed by God. Now, it can be opened to more than just God; that's the danger, as I see it. Peter was clearly "in the Spirit" and in a "trance" wherein he received a very spiritual vision disclosing God's will for the Gentiles. I'm not so quick to say, "Aw, that wasn't really a 'trance'." It very well may have been. Now, had it merely been amazement or bewilderment, the trance would have come "after" the vision. But we don't see that here. The trance facilitated the vision.

My first Senior Pastor preached an awesome message about entering a "trance" while praying in the Holy Ghost and how visions, words, words of knowledge, and various other supernatural charismata can be found in such a spiritual state. This is because the mind is subjugated to the spirit and the inner man is opened or the Spirit to flow unhindered. It was a very powerful message. I first experienced it in a revival when the Spirit moved and we were all scattered on the floor of the sanctuary. I believe that I was "lost in the Spirit" for nearly an hour. All I remember is the overwhelming reality of God Himself being present. The communication and worship between the LORD and my spirit could only be described as being like when you are resting out in the Sun and can feel it's warmth soothing, healing, and tanning your body. His mere presence said more than mere words could ever describe.

I do not fear the supernatural. What I fear and fight against is the entwining of eastern religions and other false doctrine with scripture. This is what I see in the writings of Foster and Merton, which now has bled into evangelical circles where now John Piper, Beth Moore, Willow Creek, Saddleback, Mars Hill and many others are using philosophies brought from Catholicism, Buddhism and Zen and are trying to wrap it in scripture, perverting the word of God.

It should be noted that Catholicism essentially banned what we call "contemplative prayer" around the 1500's in effort to advance a more "mental" form of prayer with verbiage and liturgy. They found it to be "too spiritual" in that the visions often challenged dogma. This is why, if you research, those who engaged in contemplative prayer often clashed with religious authority.

I admittedly haven't read about many mystics or what they believed. There are two I've heard of and do not agree with, St John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avila -- both of which are used to promote contemplative prayer.

I don't agree with every element in their writings (St John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avila), but I don't disagree with their writings in their entirety either. Some of the contemplative prayer practices found in the early Catholic Fathers is a practice that predates the Catholic institution. That's why it often challenged and became suspect by Catholic authorities.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

I first read this quote a few weeks, perhaps a month, ago in a different thread and was going to respond but became busy and forgot about it. I looked this quote up and found it's in the Roman Catholic Church Catechism - CCC 460.

I remember reading that the quote is attributed to Athanasius, but is actually quite older.

Now...thus far I have no issue with what has been written. I do like your reference to the Vine and Branches; however, the quote and CCC 460 take a turn I don't agree with.

I can understand.

I cannot agree with this. There are two places I read in the Bible where someone tried to be like God and both ended in misery and separation from God. Satan wanted to be as God and was cast down; Eve ate the fruit after the serpent told her the reason God didn't want her to eat the fruit was because she would be like God. Adam and Eve were sent out from the Garden after eating the fruit.

I'd like to give my perspective. Satan (Lucifer) was created as an angel. To seek to be like God would be blasphemous. However, Adam (man) was made in God’s image (like God). Adam was also given dominion and authority over all creation (being in the image of God). Adam’s “sin” wasn’t the desire to be like God. If you really think about it, he already was. God’s desire was that Adam not partake of the Tree of Knowledge. When Satan said, “…ye shall be as gods…”, he implied a falsehood… that Adam wasn’t like God. Satan essentially implied that Adam didn’t have something he indeed did…”godlikeness”, “perfection”, “holy innocence”, a “one on one” relationship with the Creator Himself. And Adam fell for it. When Adam rebelled and partook of the fruit… he became very “unlike God”. This was sin. And this brought death and every sickness and horror we know today upon mankind. In a very real sense, Christ’s atonement and propitiatory work on the cross is designed to restore this relationship between man and the Creator. Once more we are restored to “one on one” relationship. Once more we are viewed by God as “sinless” and “holy” because we take on His righteousness. Once more… we are filled with His life giving Spirit, a restored connection that brings eternal life. Now are we the “sons of God”. Now, we are made in the “restored image of God”. And it is the Christian calling to be conformed into the very image and likeness of Jesus, who is God incarnate. Our calling is… incarnational living. Christ living in us, through us, and we in Him and through Him. Oneness.

We do not become gods -- with a big G or little g. God did not become man so we could become some other god. God became man so He could redeem us from the sin caused when the first man tried becoming like God!

I agree. And that’s a common misconception of what I’m talking about. We become God. Not God’s. We become… living extensions of Him…branches of the Vine. He in us and we in Him. We partake in His nature through the abiding Holy Spirit indwelling our spirits. We are called to be “Christlike”/”Godlike”. To be, “perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect”. To be “filled” with all the “fullness” of God. To be, “sons of God”. To reflect the Lord Jesus Christ (God in flesh) in our very beings. A place wherein when Satan sees us… He sees Jesus. When others hear our words… they hear the very words of Jesus. A place wherein to receive us is… to receive Him. This spiritual state of being is far more holy than the highest of “standards”. It is… absolute spiritual union with Him.

Yes, He is the Vine and we are the branches. Notice, He is the Vine and we the branches. It is not He is the Vine and we are Vines also.

A vine and its branches are a single organism. The branches are living extensions of the vine. The very life and vitality of the vine flows through the branches, bringing them life, and produces fruit.

I agree with what you say here, and believe it is different than what CCC 460 or the quote is saying.

It isn’t different. Many have criticized this quote to entrap man in carnal, earthbound, constructs of religion. To be in union with God, to have Him abiding in your being. To really grasp that reality brings one to the point wherein human “control” is impossible. When one experiences and hears from God personally, they can only lovingly submit to another who acknowledges the same reality. I know a pastor who once told me that while I can hear from God and have experiences in God, it was all still subject to his authority and interpretation. I had a different pastor smile and tell me that he could feel the Lord in me and encouraged me to pursue what resides in me. He encouraged me to respect the office of bishop, but to always remain true to the abiding Spirit…even if it means breaking ranks with a man. He explained that he knew this from experience. I could feel the Lord in him too. I found a like reality in that man. And to this day he is dear to my heart.

I agree with what is in bold. I don't believe this is the contemplative prayer I've both read and heard being pushed today -- that being the "divine spark" within ourselves, and trying to focusor illuminate our center. And any which tries to tie mysticism or eastern religion is false.

I don’t believe in the “divine spark”. If anything… those who have the Holy Spirit abiding in them… they have… a “divine inferno”. This is Holy Ghost and Fire burning in our being. It’s no “spark”. Lol I wouldn’t be satisfied with a mere “spark”. You can’t even light a cigarette with a “spark”. lol

While I see some elements similar to, “contemplative prayer”…I tend to call what I practice (when I silence the soul in prayer) “soaking” or “immersion” prayer. And in prayer, I do find my “center”. But I don’t find it necessarily, in “myself”. I find it in Him. Because I am crucified with Christ; and yet I live. Yet I have discovered that it is not I. But rather it is Christ who lives… within me.

As far as eastern religions… it is my opinion that they have learned to open and close the gates of the soul. However, they do not have the ONE who truly desires to enter in and transform them; conforming them into His image. They have another spirit.