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09-10-2015, 03:45 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,945
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Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson
There are churches within the UPCI whose Pastor's teach that Jesus Christ is not the Father.
The Pastor's teach this because they choose to follow the Bible, not add to the Bible.
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If he ain't the father, then he ain't God.
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09-10-2015, 03:51 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: In His Hands
Posts: 13,919
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Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
For all this talk about Jesus BEING the Father, I find it interesting that the clear identity that Jesus Christ Himself embraced is that of the Son.
"You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God."
"Flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you..."
"Upon this Rock I will build my church..."
What rock? The rock of the identity of Jesus Christ as the Son of the Living God.
__________________
"The choices we make reveal the true nature of our character."
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09-10-2015, 05:09 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: TN
Posts: 200
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Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
One problem is that more than one group use the term Apostolic. I told someone from Indiana that I was Apostolic and he thought I was part of a group in Indiana that was similar to Universalists (or something else crazy). Another thought I was an offshoot of Catholics and he said that's what he was too. He was similar to Lutheran.
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09-10-2015, 05:15 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
Seems I was mistaken? I keep running into people who identify as "apostolic" and "oneness" who nevertheless believe and teach "Jesus is not God", or that Jesus is NOT the Father, that he is only " indwelt" by Deity and is not Himself the Supreme Deity, and other similar types of things.
Did I get on the wrong bus? Should I get off ASAP?
I was blown away when I discovered there were "apostolics" who didn't believe in the new birth of water and Spirit, or who didn't believe that baptism in the Name is FOR (not "because of") the remission of sins. But the last several years seems there is a rapidly growing number of apostolic oneness pentecostal believers who aren't even oneness - at least not as I understand the term...
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Those are Unitarians.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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09-10-2015, 05:15 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: TN
Posts: 200
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Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson
For all this talk about Jesus BEING the Father, I find it interesting that the clear identity that Jesus Christ Himself embraced is that of the Son.
"You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God."
"Flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you..."
"Upon this Rock I will build my church..."
What rock? The rock of the identity of Jesus Christ as the Son of the Living God.
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He was the son in his humanity, but he did claim to be the father and Isaiah said he was:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. ( Isa. 9:6 KJV)
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. ( Jn. 8:58 KJV)
I and my Father are one. ( Jn. 10:30 KJV)
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? ( Jn. 14:8-9 KJV)
There are too many verses that identify the deity of Jesus as Jehovah. Unless you believe in more than one Jehovah there's no way Jesus is not the Father.
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09-10-2015, 05:17 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
A person is not apostolic if they don't believe Jesus is the Father
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Such polls are deceptive. By "Is Jesus the Father" do you mean "Is the Son the Father?"? To which even David Bernard recognizes the distinction.
When we say "Jesus is the Father", everyone else (Trinitarians, Unitarians, Arians, Jews and Muslims) believe we are saying the Son is the Father without distinction
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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09-10-2015, 05:31 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: In His Hands
Posts: 13,919
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Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyabrown
He was the son in his humanity, but he did claim to be the father and Isaiah said he was:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. ( Isa. 9:6 KJV) |
Yep, I don't know what to do with that scripture. However, we have thousands of years of Christianity and hardly anyone has ever had the understanding of that scripture or any scripture that the Oneness Pentecostals teach. Why is that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyabrown
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. ( Jn. 8:58 KJV) |
A reference to Jesus' Identity as GOD, but not necessarily the Father.
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyabrown
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One, as in the SAME? Not buying it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyabrown
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? ( Jn. 14:8-9 KJV) |
The Son is the image of the Father. However, He is still the Son. He clearly accepts His Identity as the Son, which was revealed by the Holy Spirit to Peter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyabrown
There are too many verses that identify the deity of Jesus as Jehovah. Unless you believe in more than one Jehovah there's no way Jesus is not the Father.
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If that was really true, then the vast majority Christian history would be filled with people who shared the Oneness Pentecostal view of Christ. However, the opposite is true and Oneness Pentecostal damns 97% or more of over 2,000 years of Christians to hell without any chance of redemption simply because they understood God wrong, were baptized the wrong way, didn't speak in tongues?
Does anyone see the logic in doing that?
__________________
"The choices we make reveal the true nature of our character."
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09-10-2015, 05:32 PM
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Administrator
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,848
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Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
Seems I was mistaken? I keep running into people who identify as "apostolic" and "oneness" who nevertheless believe and teach "Jesus is not God", or that Jesus is NOT the Father, that he is only " indwelt" by Deity and is not Himself the Supreme Deity, and other similar types of things.
Did I get on the wrong bus? Should I get off ASAP?
I was blown away when I discovered there were "apostolics" who didn't believe in the new birth of water and Spirit, or who didn't believe that baptism in the Name is FOR (not "because of") the remission of sins. But the last several years seems there is a rapidly growing number of apostolic oneness pentecostal believers who aren't even oneness - at least not as I understand the term...
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Can you give a specific example of where you have seen a Apostolic say that Jesus is not God?
__________________
"I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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09-10-2015, 06:00 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,161
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Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Such polls are deceptive. By "Is Jesus the Father" do you mean "Is the Son the Father?"? To which even David Bernard recognizes the distinction.
When we say "Jesus is the Father", everyone else (Trinitarians, Unitarians, Arians, Jews and Muslims) believe we are saying the Son is the Father without distinction
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I chose my words carefully. Jesus is the Father. The Son is not the Father. I would think apostolics would know that distinction, as per the issue at hand.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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09-10-2015, 06:06 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Re: I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Fat
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
I chose my words carefully. Jesus is the Father. The Son is not the Father. I would think apostolics would know that distinction, as per the issue at hand.
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Im not sure all Apostolics DO know the distinction...most of the time it's just not explained. Rather they get taught in sound bytes or bumper sticker theology...
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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