New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentance

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Out of 35 respondents .... so far only three believe we are fully forgiven after water baptism ...

In my opinion, intuitively we know God forgives us at repentance ....

He cannot reject/despise a humble and contrite heart.

God accepts those who believe in Christ and repent..turning from darkness to light. I believe He even sets them free from spiritual captivity at repentance but this is not the same as divine forgiveness/remittance of sin.

[Jeremy]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

The writers of the Scriptures dictate the meaning ... not translators ...

they used one word for both forgivenes and remission ... aphesis.

There is no separation. You will not see this in the NIV, ESV, NASB or even in the Spanish RVA

Wow. Is that true? I would say my core beliefs are what some of you call "three steppers". My understanding has been that repentance is telling God you are sorry for your sinful ways, which is a sort of death, but that remission comes when you are buried with him in baptism (this is when, by my understanding, the blood is applied to your life.) and that the Holy Ghost represents the final resurrection, to "rise and walk in newness of life" with God's spirit dwelling inside of you, directing you, and helping you overcome the world.

I have always thought that remission was a major part of this whole thing. Remission is strictly a new testament word and (as I understood it) concept. The Bible says without blood, there can be no remission. Is this the same word (aphesis) as forgiveness here too? is there ever any distinction between the two? If not there is a major reason for a lot of confusion.

Side note: Dan (to a lessor extent) and Baron (to an almost unreadable extent), I know I am new here, and it seems this is a common contention here, but I would really like to say your arrogance and grand standing makes it seem like you are more interested in conflict than discussion. *Lets dance* *Sharpens iron* and phrases like that indicate to me that you are being cocky rather than sincerely trying to edify.

I hope that is not the case, as I think you guys are offering enlightening points of view and giving people some good points of reference to study. Why undo your work with needless and counterproductive hostility? Why ask pointed questions and try and trap people? It is an effective way to win an argument in in your own mind, (just look at the political analysts who use the same cheap, meaningless tactics.) and to people who agree with you, but will never accomplish anything real in changing opinions. Would it be so hard instead of saying "When are you forgiven? Huh, answer me, answer me, ANSWER ME! WHEN ARE YOU FORGIVEN? ANSWER THAT!!! to simply say "I believe based on _____ _:__ and _____ _:__ that forgiveness happens at repentance, and that the purpose of baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost is _______.?

I have been reading for two pages, and I know what you don't believe based on the general context of what you have said and not said, but have no clue what you DO believe./end rant

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Firstly I have never claimed to be a 3-stepper. Acts 2:38 is the only way for men to be saved since Pentecost.
However Dan is correct sins are forgiven at repentance but not remitted until they are baptized in Jesus Name.

I thought this too, which is why I want to know more about what Dan said about the two words being the same.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I realize both forgiveness and remission comes from the same Greek word and both are purchased by His blood yet NOT the same in functions and experience.
ONLY in baptism in Jesus Name are the sins of the penitent remitted.

Could you expound on the difference between the English words is they are both from the same Greek word? I am not sure how this can be.

Originally Posted by Ferd

cursador for silliness alert!!!!!!


Hey everybody look at danA! he needs you all to bow to his desire to make us all into baptists!

yea danA!


snort

See Dan? There is no need for needless posts like this one. This person ignores your content because he sees you as being an attention whore due to your sarcasm. Be nice about things! lol.

Originally Posted by Ev. Duane Williams

Here we go. There was a little girl who went out to play in her brand new dress. She saw a mud puddle and thought "Why not?" and jumped right in. She got her dress filthy. Realizing the wrong she had done, she went to her father in tears of true remorse, saying "Daddy please forgive me!"(repentance). Her dad's heart melts and he says "I forgive you."(forgiveness of sin). She is forgiven and won't be punished, but her dress is still filthy and is not presentable. Her dad would still be ashamed of her in public. Her dad then washes the dress with a healthy dose of spray-n-wash(baptism), and the dress comes out sparkling clean(remission of sin). He then plants a device in the dress(Spirit) that sounds an audible and visible alarm whenever she goes near the mud again(power over sin).

Repentance= forgiveness of sin
Water Baptism in Jesus' Name= remission(washing away) of sin
Holy Spirit Baptism= power over sin

If I am understanding all of this, and I doubt I am, I think the bolded part of your story is where the problem is. Will she, or won't she be punished due to her forgiveness or lack thereof.

Find a different forum man.
Your clueless.

Is he? He seems pretty educated to me.

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

In this verse, the words are different both in the English AND the Greek. Is there a difference or not?

I looked it up on a cool web site I found while going through this thread and they are in fact different Greek words. Thanks for pointing this out. The definitions still seem rather ambiguous though as far as discerning one from the other as being significantly different.

Check it out. http://scripturetext.com/luke/24-47.htm

I am at the top of page 7, and I simply can not go any more. Sometimes, I literally get angry that all of this is so complicated.

It usually provokes utter apathy for the entire thing. I honestly wonder if anyone has the right answers and then I wonder how much longer I can continue to care. the more I try to learn, the more I realize that certain knowledge when it comes to this Bible thing is fairly nonexistent.

*Sigh* I think I am going to go shoot some Aliens in Halo 3 where the good guys and bad guys are more easily defined.

[Michael Phelps]

Jeremy, I commend you. Your posts are very concise and articulate, and loaded with logic.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by staysharp

You were forgiven before the foundation of the world. Christs' forgiveness has nothing to do with you accepting His gift. I can forgive you before you offend me, while you are offending me and after you offend me.

I believe the Bible teaches that the eternal God has perfect foreknowledge. He knows the end from the beginning. He used this foreknowledge to call, chose, predestine, justify, and glorify us before the foundation of the world. Because his foreknowledge it perfect, he can call those things the are not as though they are, IOW, God can say the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world even though Christ did not come into the world to die until near the end of time.

There is no way you can forgive someone for something they haven't done unless you have perfect foreknowledge that they will commit a transgression against you. So you would have to be God. Even though God foreknows I will repent and He will forgive me, that does not negate that the event has to come to pass.

We can only come into relationship if you receive my gift to you. The blood was applied at Calvary, now its up to humanity to accept and receive the gift Christ offered for us; his own body on a tree.

The blood was shed at Calvary, and applied when I went down under the water in baptism in Jesus name. The debt was paid for the sins of the whole world on the cross by the sinless Lamb of God. The gift of remission of sins by the blood of Christ in a literal circumcision of our heart by the Spirit of God happens at baptism. Check out post #183 for scriptural references.

[SDG]

Jeremy ... if you have further questions on remision/forgiveness/aphesis ... please follow this link ...

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...079#post585079

You may be able to infer my views from the posts ...

Welcome to the AFF

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Jeremy

Side note: Dan (to a lessor extent) and Baron (to an almost unreadable extent), I know I am new here, and it seems this is a common contention here, but I would really like to say your arrogance and grand standing makes it seem like you are more interested in conflict than discussion. *Lets dance* *Sharpens iron* and phrases like that indicate to me that you are being cocky rather than sincerely trying to edify.

I hope that is not the case, as I think you guys are offering enlightening points of view and giving people some good points of reference to study. Why undo your work with needless and counterproductive hostility? Why ask pointed questions and try and trap people? It is an effective way to win an argument in in your own mind, (just look at the political analysts who use the same cheap, meaningless tactics.) and to people who agree with you, but will never accomplish anything real in changing opinions. Would it be so hard instead of saying "When are you forgiven? Huh, answer me, answer me, ANSWER ME! WHEN ARE YOU FORGIVEN? ANSWER THAT!!! to simply say "I believe based on _____ _:__ and _____ _:__ that forgiveness happens at repentance, and that the purpose of baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost is _______.?

I have been reading for two pages, and I know what you don't believe based on the general context of what you have said and not said, but have no clue what you DO believe./end rant

I am way behind on this thread but being the narcissistic, arrogant schmuck that I am I wanted to respond to this before I took the time to catch up.

The point of the way I pressed the question was particularly important on this thread. If one insists that someone needs to be baptized for sins to be remitted/forgiven the first question that needs to be answered is "What happens at repentance?" since forgiveness and remission are exactly the same word in the Scripture and if forgiveness is given at repentance then nothing more needs to be done to remove the barrier between God and ones self. So it is very important that we answer that question first before we move on to answer what happens at Baptism.

[mizpeh]

I am at the top of page 7, and I simply can not go any more. Sometimes, I literally get angry that all of this is so complicated.

It usually provokes utter apathy for the entire thing. I honestly wonder if anyone has the right answers and then I wonder how much longer I can continue to care. the more I try to learn, the more I realize that certain knowledge when it comes to this Bible thing is fairly nonexistent.

*Sigh* I think I am going to go shoot some Aliens in Halo 3 where the good guys and bad guys are more easily defined.

Jeremy, I know the frustration you're feeling. I felt it when I was much younger in the Lord and made the mistake of giving into that apathy. I stopped studying and only read the Bible.

God promises that if we seek Him with all of our heart we will find Him. Don't give up seeking Him. When you don't understand something, put it on the shelf for awhile and study something less difficult. Go back and look at the easier verses and try to fit them together. It really is here a little and there a little, line upon line and precept upon precept. (You can't get to Calculus without going through algebra first. ) When you find the answers it is like finding a hidden treasure. Oh, earnestly pray for wisdom and understanding.

Whatever you do, don't give up. God's Spirit will lead and guide you into all truth if you will seek Him to preserve your way. He kept me from going into a false doctrine a couple of years ago.

[Jeremy]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Jeremy, I commend you. Your posts are very concise and articulate, and loaded with logic.

And I commend you. You swim fast.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Jeremy

And I commend you. You swim fast.

[theoldpaths]

Now I'm sure Jesus taught his disciples about repentance as is written in the word...

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

And John preached the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins...

Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Now Peter followed Jesus for around 3 years, but he wasn't converted yet shown by...

Luke 22:32 - But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

When did Peter get converted? Acts 2.

Now AFTER Peter got converted, he could preach the following...

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Peter said repent AND be converted - what he was saying was what Jesus told him to preach in Luke 24:47 and Acts 2:38 - repent and be born again - born of the water and Spirit - be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and be baptized in the Holy Ghost - be converted.

Repenting and being converted INCLUDES having your sins being blotted out or washed away.

Let's look at that word CONVERTED...

Conversion - Act 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

Where did the conversion of the Gentiles take place? What did it include? The conversion of the Gentiles took place in Acts 10 onward. What did the conversion of the Gentiles in Acts 10 include? Baptism in the Holy Ghost and baptism in water in the name of the Lord.

Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

In the context of salvation to Israel, God has given them repentance and remission of sins - compare with Luke 24:47, which was fulfilled in Acts 2:38. And those who have obeyed God in Him giving repentance and remission of sins, God has given the Holy Ghost. Those who will obey Acts 2:38 to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, God will cause them to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Compare that to Acts 2:38.

Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

The promise of the New Covenant includes having his laws written in our hearts and minds - what does that? - the Holy Ghost - what else is included in the new covenant? - the remission of sins and iniquities - and we know by other scriptures that remission of sins comes from repentance and being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and we get his laws written in our hearts and minds by the Holy Ghost

I sometimes wonder if some bring up these threads just so those who don't believe can see the teaching from the word by responses to these threads; or if "Apostolics" are really questioning the salvation plan? Or if some are just wasting time on questions wherein their really is no profit because the answer is already given in black and white in the scriptures or are "unlearned questions"?

Most apostolics who have grown to a certain level of maturity through desiring the sincere milk of the word, already have been taught knowledge and have been caused to understand doctrine. Since they have knowledge and can understand doctrine, they are able to teach others.

Those "apostolics" who are otherwise or contrary, I wonder about?

Has somethings stunted their growth? Are they getting good healthy food? Is something wrong with the environment where they have been planted? Is the husbandman who is supposed to be looking after the trees and keeping them healthy and making sure they grow not fulfilling his responsibilities? Does he care or is he just a hireling out to get his hire?

Sometimes I wonder. Does anyone else wonder, or is it just me?

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Questioning basic foundational principles of the doctrine of Christ? I notice in the above that repentance from dead works is a separate doctrine from baptisms - plural. Turning away from dead works and baptisms - plural - one of which is for the remission of sins. Perhaps we see 2 purposes here - repentance is for the turning away or a change in direction from or a 180 degree turn away from dead works or sin and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is for the remission or washing away of one's past sins.

If a sinner had all of his past sins remitted or washed away, do you think it would give him a good conscience towards God?
It seems that Peter in his epistle thought so...

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Noah and his family were saved by water in the ark because the water washed away the sins and wickedness of the world - just like NT water baptism in the name of Jesus is for the remission or washing away of sins, giving one a good conscience towards God

Glory to God!