Love One Another and the Cross

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

"And you're quoting scripture out of context."

you cannot prove this, although you are welcome to expand the verses i replied with and try.

I am trying to compare your thoughts of the verse with mine, and you wont engage it. I asked you whose sins are covered in that verse. You won't respond. By comparing views FIRST we can then proceed to discuss whose interpretation is correct.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by shazeep

"Who said He does?"

in a sense, anyone who insists upon their interpretation, me included.


"can you understand what I say when I claim that there is a beginning point of remission of sins and salvation, and it is before we get the chance to do one good deed? And it is the work of God in the death of Christ."

sure, and i would call that Unitarianism, which might be correct for all i know, in some way.


"Why did you not say the remission of sins is by the blood of Jesus when I asked?"

because that means something different for me than it does for you. As you have just demonstrated, my verbal agreement is sufficient for you; it is not for me. Let me be crystal clear now; i have no faith in your declaration that having performed Acts 2:38, even earnestly, as best you are able, makes you saved. People are hypocrites; even nice people. I think, or maybe suspect, that you are a damned liar, and didn't truly believe a word of it either, even as you were saying it; how do you like me now?
How, oh how, can you prove me wrong?

^

[shazeep]

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

"Who said He does?"

in a sense, anyone who insists upon their interpretation, me included.


"can you understand what I say when I claim that there is a beginning point of remission of sins and salvation, and it is before we get the chance to do one good deed? And it is the work of God in the death of Christ."

sure, and i would call that Unitarianism, which might be correct for all i know, in some way.

It's not unitarianism. Unitarianism is belief that God is one and Jesus is not God, but a human like us. It has nothing to do with the blood saving us.

"Why did you not say the remission of sins is by the blood of Jesus when I asked?"

because that means something different for me than it does for you.

Then explain what it means and how you derive that. You're only stating conclusions and not showing how you arrive at them and what the thought process is behind your intrepretation.

As you have just demonstrated, my verbal agreement is sufficient for you;

I have not demonstrated that and repeatedly denied that.

it is not for me. Let me be crystal clear now; i have no faith in your declaration that having performed Acts 2:38,

I really do not care if you faith in it or not. I am trying to demonstrate it has nothing to do with my declaration. It has to do with what the Word teaches GOD SEES in it all. You won't touch that, though.

even earnestly, as best you are able, makes you saved.

I could care less what anyone thinks of my faith in Acts 2:38. Your opinion does not save me. God's opinion saves. And I am trying to get you to deal with what the bible says God demands FROM HIS perspective what saves or not.

People are hypocrites; even nice people. I think, or maybe suspect, that you are a damned liar, and didn't truly believe a word of it either, even as you were saying it; how do you like me now?
How, oh how, can you prove me wrong?

That's the point. Who gives a flying flip? That's not my concern. My concern is what the bible relates to us regarding God's demands and what He sees. You won't touch that. Hmmm...

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Originally Posted by shazeep

Muslims don't need some lost hypocrite telling them how to find Jesus, when they demonstrably have not found Him themselves.

Let me try this again.

Are you saying Muslims need someone to tell them the cross of Christ's death is necessary for their salvation, but just that a hypocrite is not the person to do it?

I noted you're not answering me because you're not dealing with the core point I am seeking for. You're not telling me what they need to be told.

It seems to me, correct me if I'm wrong, you think a person is a hypocrite just because they think Muslims need to be told they need the death of Jesus. And that means NO ONE CAN TELL THEM THEY NEED the death of Jesus, because hypocrites can't tell them, and anyone who tells them is a hypocrite. You got them locked up without the gospel ever coming to them. You think if a person feels the need to tell muslims about the death of Jesus for salvation, they are "US FOUR AND NO MORE" hypocrites.

Would YOU tell a muslim they need Jesus' death on the cross?

[shazeep]

It's not unitarianism.
Universalism then; or whatever "everyone gets saved" is.

Then explain what it means and how you derive that.
well, to me it means that if Acts 2:38 justifies one forsaking humility, condemning others who do not verbally agree with them, and disregarding the uncomfortable parts of Scripture that do not fit with their dogma, then i am looking for a better way.

I am trying to demonstrate it has nothing to do with my declaration. It has to do with what the Word teaches GOD SEES in it all. You won't touch that, though.

Really? Well then, let me touch it now. How will you demonstrate this?

And I am trying to get you to deal with what the bible says God demands FROM HIS perspective what saves or not.
You are privy to God's perspective? Do you really believe that all Muslims are lost to God? That God does not weigh their hearts, but instead requires that everyone must believe like Mike in order to be saved? Because you can--wait for it--prove it beyond a doubt using Scripture? While rejecting any other Scripture that provides a different perspective? And hence end up @ "God is love, and all Muslims--and for that matter pretty much everyone else--are lost?" listen to yourself, man

That's the point. Who gives a flying flip? That's not my concern.
you misunderstand. i am asking you how one might prove me wrong, in that position.

[shazeep]

Are you saying Muslims need someone to tell them the cross of Christ's death is necessary for their salvation, but just that a hypocrite is not the person to do it?
yesterday i might have said that; but now i am saying that Muslims or anyone else should run from anyone who approaches them in that manner, as they are hypocrites, however well-meaning they may be. If one has not demonstrated Christ in their life, and considers you lost until you agree with them verbally about some understanding of the Cross, run.

I noted you're not answering me because you're not dealing with the core point I am seeking for. You're not telling me what they need to be told.
Amen. You illuminate why verbal agreement is pointless; because you believe that you have something to tell them that will save them, and seek a verbal declaration of understanding as evidence. The core is hollow, iow.

It seems to me, correct me if I'm wrong, you think a person is a hypocrite just because they think Muslims need to be told they need the death of Jesus. And that means NO ONE CAN TELL THEM THEY NEED the death of Jesus, because hypocrites can;t tell them, and anyone who tells them is a hypocrite. You got them locked up without he gospel ever coming to them. You think if a person feels the need to tel muslims about the death of Jesus for salvation, they are "US FOUR AND NO MORE" hypocrites.
Preach it, brother!

Would YOU tell a muslim they need Jesus' death on the cross?
no; see, i have this beam here, in my own eye...

That means NO ONE can tell them that, because the only ones who ever would tell them that are hypocrites. The only way to not be a hypocrite in your assessment is to not tell people they're sinners and not preach the gospel to them.
Finally, we have a breakthrough! Amen!
or else
I am telling you that you are a sinner! And i can prove it with Scripture!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

It's not unitarianism.
Universalism then; or whatever "everyone gets saved" is.

That is universalism.

What has that got to do with anything?

Then explain what it means and how you derive that.
well, to me it means that if Acts 2:38 justifies one forsaking humility, condemning others who do not verbally agree with them, and disregarding the uncomfortable parts of Scripture that do not fit with their dogma, then i am looking for a better way.

Who said we can condemn others, forsake humility and condemn people who do not verbally agree with anything? Scripture gives dogma. Acts 2:38 is dogma as well as everything else written in the bible.

I am trying to demonstrate it has nothing to do with my declaration. It has to do with what the Word teaches GOD SEES in it all. You won't touch that, though.

Really? Well then, let me touch it now. How will you demonstrate this?

That is a whole other discussion. You have to know what it is to demonstrate first and how to get what it is that must be demonstrated.

And I am trying to get you to deal with what the bible says God demands FROM HIS perspective what saves or not.
You are privy to God's perspective?

Nobody is. The Bible relates it to everyone. Why always make this subjective? The objective truth is what we need to know first and take it from there to the subjectiveness.

Do you really believe that all Muslims are lost to God? That God does not weigh their hearts, but instead requires that everyone must believe like Mike in order to be saved?

You're not reading again. I never said anyone has to agree with me in anything.

I can type that a hundred more times, you know.

They have to agree with what the Bible teaches.

Because you can--wait for it--prove it beyond a doubt using Scripture? While rejecting any other Scripture that provides a different perspective?

I reject nothing in the bible. But you're sure avoiding anything to do with what the bible says about what God requires for salvation. Forget me. Talk bible.

And hence end up @ "God is love, and all Muslims--and for that matter pretty much everyone else--are lost?" listen to yourself, man

I never said anything except what the bible says about who is lost. Deal with the bible. Stop making me the issue.

That's the point. Who gives a flying flip? That's not my concern.
you misunderstand. i am asking you how one might prove me wrong, in that position.

I understand you perfectly fine. You asked how I could prove you wrong when you judge me and say I am a hypocrite after accusing everyone who judges to be US FOUR AND NO MORE. I understand that perfectly. It does not matter about you being proved wrong. Who cares about your opinion? Who cares about mine? Hint: NO ONE. It matters what God thinks is right or not.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Are you saying Muslims need someone to tell them the cross of Christ's death is necessary for their salvation, but just that a hypocrite is not the person to do it?
yesterday i might have said that; but now i am saying that Muslims or anyone else should run from anyone who approaches them in that manner, as they are hypocrites, however well-meaning they may be. If one has not demonstrated Christ in their life, and considers you lost until you agree with them verbally about some understanding of the Cross, run.

You don't tell anyone whom you think is saved that they need the cross when they never heard anything about the cross. So, to you, anyone who considers any human being as lost should not preach to that human being. Gothca! Nobody can preach to ANYONE.

I noted you're not answering me because you're not dealing with the core point I am seeking for. You're not telling me what they need to be told.
Amen. You illuminate why verbal agreement is pointless; because you believe that you have something to tell them that will save them, and seek a verbal declaration of understanding as evidence. The core is hollow, iow.

Missed my point. I could care less about anyone's opinion. What does the bible say to tell them?

You won't answer. You keep making it about me.

It seems to me, correct me if I'm wrong, you think a person is a hypocrite just because they think Muslims need to be told they need the death of Jesus. And that means NO ONE CAN TELL THEM THEY NEED the death of Jesus, because hypocrites can;t tell them, and anyone who tells them is a hypocrite. You got them locked up without he gospel ever coming to them. You think if a person feels the need to tel muslims about the death of Jesus for salvation, they are "US FOUR AND NO MORE" hypocrites.
Preach it, brother!

How ironic! Cannot preach to anyone and you encourage me to preach how we cannot preach. Yep lots of circles here.

Can't tell anyone they're lost, when the bible says to tell the sinner they're lost. NIce way to annihilate the gospel message. Satan would love it!

Would YOU tell a muslim they need Jesus' death on the cross?
no; see, i have this beam here, in my own eye...

Wow. You are a half empty kind of guy. Just be telling people they are lost means a person has a beam in their own eye.

That means NO ONE can tell them that, because the only ones who ever would tell them that are hypocrites. The only way to not be a hypocrite in your assessment is to not tell people they're sinners and not preach the gospel to them.
Finally, we have a breakthrough! Amen!

So no one can preach to sinners or else they're hypocrites.

Yep. Satan loves the cessation of the gospel. I am glad someone told me I was a sinner.

Peter, what a hypocrite:

Act 2:38 KJV Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

He told people to repent. Hypocrite, Peter!

Mat 9:13 KJV But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus came to tell sinners they need to repent. Just destroyed His message, Shazeep.

And John said those who deny the Son are antichrists. Better not repeat that because that means we're hypocrites and John was the biggest of all because he identified them. Cannot identify anyone!

Man the devil sure wraps people up with nonsense so they cannot even spread the gospel. No wonder you don't like those verses. No wonder you stay away from the ones I quoted.

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The bible sure encourages what you call grounds for hypocrisy, Shazeep.

Act 16:10 KJV And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

Rom 1:15 KJV So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

Rom 15:20 KJV Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

1Co 1:17 KJV For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

2Co 2:12 KJV Furthermore, when I came to Troas to preach Christ's gospel, and a door was opened unto me of the Lord,

Gal 1:9 KJV As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 KJV As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Mat 24:14 KJV And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


That would never get done according to your philosophy.

Thank God people disagree with you.