JEWS!

[Rev]

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

We should look into the context of Zec 11. I will be back later on tonight. I'm going to look into that...
Does GOD break a covenant? How? Do you believe in the "tribulation" time there'll be some scenarios that the Jews are put into by GOD? Why would you believe this? Is GOD done with the Jewish people? Ought they still be faithful to the Covenant previously made even if they believe in Christ?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

(Heb 10:4) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

(Heb 10:9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

The blood of bulls and goats can never take away sin! it never did and it never will.

He found fault with the first so he brought in the second! It was done away with and will never be applied again!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Yes you are missing something. Should is not Need. Need is necessity. They do not NEED to keep the law. It is no requirement. They SHOULD keep the law just as the believing Jews in the bible kept the law. It was their identity and culture. The law taught some great truths about Christ in types and shadows and that would be a great way to show other Jews the truth of Christ

In all due respect, I disagree. Paul said the law was a schoolmaster and that includes the types and shadows. And that was done away with when Christ is come.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

To help some of you out here who need to know a little more about Judaism. Jews don't keep the law to be saved. They keep the law because they are Jewish. They don't keep it to become Jewish. They keep it because they ARE Jewish. The Jewish law is for identity not salvation.

A Jew who becomes a follower of Jesus Christ (the Pharisaic Jewish Rabbi) if he desires to remain Jewish may keep all of the law if he so chooses. He still understands that the final sacrifice was made on Calvary for his salvation. He doesn't HAVE to keep the law, however he may desire to keep the law to retain his Jewish (now Messianic) identity. I know of Messianic Jewish congregations who keep the law to varying degrees.

There are MANY things in Judaism which Christians would do well to understand. The law was NOT done away with. There is no evidence whatsoever that states that Paul ever stopped following Judaism. He did however, know that the keeping of the law did not bring salvation..Jesus Christ did.

I heard this many times, but where does the New Testament teach that Jews should do these things after they are converted so as to adhere to culture? I heard people give derived conclusions from the NT, but never substantial evidence or teaching to that effect from the NT.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

In all due respect, I disagree. Paul said the law was a schoolmaster and that includes the types and shadows. And that was done away with when Christ is come.

Right....I think you are missing something here brother. I said they should keep it to show OTHER Jews. I never said they HAD to keep it or it was needed to be kept. The Jewish believes in the bible kept the law. In fact when it came to a question of the law and Gentiles the others said they should keep certain things because Moses is read in every city...in other words "So we can keep winning the jews"...

IF a Jewish convert is going to win their jewish friends they are going to place a stumbling block by forsaking everything that is a part of being Jewish...that was what they did in the bible. Jewish believes were very zealous for the law and Paul took them to the temple to undergo a purification ritual....why?

Act 21:19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law,
Act 21:21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.
Act 21:22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
Act 21:23 Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
Act 21:24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.
Act 21:25 But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality."
Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day he purified himself along with them and went into the temple, giving notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and the offering presented for each one of them.

See again I am not saying they HAVE to keep the law. I am not saying they NEED to keep the law. I am saying they SHOULD Keep the law so they can lead other Jews to Christ. The law teaches those Jews in types and shadows about Jesus and it's a perfect way to show non believing Jews the truth. The Ceder ceremony is a perfect example of that. Believing Jews can use it to show their unbelieving Jewish friends the Truth of Christ

[mfblume]

Paul looked at people under law as being distinct from him by the way he termed this next passage.

1 Corinthians 9:20-21 KJV (20) And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; (21) To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

I think that means he did not keep facets of law except to win Jews.

Acts 16:3 KJV Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.

Acts 18:18 KJV And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.

I find no evidence of Paul personally continuing in rituals because he was jewish, but only to win Jews.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Right....I think you are missing something here brother. I said they should keep it to show OTHER Jews. I never said they HAD to keep it or it was needed to be kept. The Jewish believes in the bible kept the law. In fact when it came to a question of the law and Gentiles the others said they should keep certain things because Moses is read in every city...in other words "So we can keep winning the jews"...

I agree. My last post showed that. But some are saying here that Paul personally kept the rituals aside from using that to reach jews. They feel it was retaining his culture. I disagree.

IF a Jewish convert is going to win their jewish friends they are going to place a stumbling block by forsaking everything that is a part of being Jewish...that was what they did in the bible. Jewish believes were very zealous for the law and Paul took them to the temple to undergo a purification ritual....why?

Act 21:19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law,
Act 21:21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.
Act 21:22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
Act 21:23 Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
Act 21:24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.
Act 21:25 But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality."
Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day he purified himself along with them and went into the temple, giving notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and the offering presented for each one of them.

See again I am not saying they HAVE to keep the law. I am not saying they NEED to keep the law. I am saying they SHOULD Keep the law so they can lead other Jews to Christ.

I agree with that. However, I disagree he did it because he retained personal jewish culture in his life.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

To help some of you out here who need to know a little more about Judaism. Jews don't keep the law to be saved. They keep the law because they are Jewish. They don't keep it to become Jewish. They keep it because they ARE Jewish. The Jewish law is for identity not salvation.

A Jew who becomes a follower of Jesus Christ (the Pharisaic Jewish Rabbi) if he desires to remain Jewish may keep all of the law if he so chooses. He still understands that the final sacrifice was made on Calvary for his salvation. He doesn't HAVE to keep the law, however he may desire to keep the law to retain his Jewish (now Messianic) identity. I know of Messianic Jewish congregations who keep the law to varying degrees.

There are MANY things in Judaism which Christians would do well to understand. The law was NOT done away with. There is no evidence whatsoever that states that Paul ever stopped following Judaism. He did however, know that the keeping of the law did not bring salvation..Jesus Christ did.

Exactly...being a Christian by reason of the New Birth does not mean they are no longer Jewish by reason of natural birth.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Barb

Exactly...being a Christian by reason of the New Birth does not mean they are no longer Jewish by reason of natural birth.

Jews are not a race. Natural birth does not make anyone a Jew. RELIGION alone makes one a Jew. That is whey gentiles can BECOME JEWS.

With all due respect, natural birth is negated in the Kingdom. Our old man, naturally born, is dead with Christ and we are new creatures.

I maintain, personally (just my views), that Jews converted to Christ should not keep anything from law except, as Praxeas said, to perhaps win other jews.

It's just that it proposes a mindset that we really are not not new creatures, and that carries some bad baggage that will eventually affect our personal outlook on self.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree. My last post showed that. But some are saying here that Paul personally kept the rituals aside from using that to reach jews. They feel it was retaining his culture. I disagree.



I agree with that. However, I disagree he did it because he retained personal jewish culture in his life.

It's a part of the over all Jewish Culture. It is a part of their Jewishness. They don't have to keep it, but to forsake it completely presents a stumbling block to others....it's a great witnessing tool to other Jews.

Why do you think the Jewish believers in the bible kept it? Even James does not seem ready to tell them they need to stop

[Hoovie]

No, the "law" of Christ IS the fulfillment.