We have to Be perfect in order to make heaven

[Jimmyjay]

Originally Posted by corvet786c

Its a question I have, well according to Jesus we have to be perfect in order to go to heaven or to be with him or to accept us.

Those churches in revelation chapt 2-3 obeyed acts 2:38, they had charity,service,faith everything paul talked about.Yet Jesus still had some problems with them except they repent? So how do we get it right? Do we have to just repent with our mouth everyday for every little thing to be right. I dont know??

If we love the Lord with all we have, we will be perfect and keep his comandments. Search the scriptures daily. It is a comandment that we read the book. Won't it be wonderful there. Bless the Lord, Praise Jesus.

[Sister Alvear]

I am afraid I am a long ways from perfect....

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I am afraid I am a long ways from perfect....

I think that is the point though. Walking by faith is perfect. To not walk it is to be of the flesh and imperfect.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Aquila you teach false doctrine.

Jesus was accused of the same thing. Besides, I didn’t get the memo stating that you were authorized to be the arbitrator of truth. Man is totally depraved and is incapable of achieving holiness in the human self. Righteousness is imparted by God’s Spirit alone. One cannot work their way to Heaven, for if righteousness could come by obedience to a law, Christ died in vain. I see elements of Pelagianism (a false doctrine) in many of the posts you’ve written.

ABIDING is by DOING! JEsus said so! You are not righteous while still being unrighteous. You are not his friend while in sin. HE will compel you to turn away but you are at enmity. We are righteous because he leads us TO DO righteousness and we follow by faith and he judges us right before him. In doing so he cleanses us from sin. As he walked we are to walk.

No… we are righteous because He is righteous. The moment you are born again, you are declared righteous in God’s sight. You’re not on probation until you get it right, nor are you expected to walk away and never sin again, not even knowing the Holy Scriptures. The Christian must come to realize, appropriate, own, and live the fact that he or she has a new nature, is a new creature, and has the abiding Christ within. They need to realize that the moment they received the Holy Ghost, their spirit was regenerated. Yes, the soul (the mind) has to be renewed through study of the Scriptures, prayer, and meditation. This will bring the mind into alignment with the new nature within. And yes, the body has its sinful tendencies and lusts. As one grows in grace the very POWER of Jesus flows as we put on the mind of Christ, bringing discipline. And through this we are brought into victory over the desires of the flesh.

It’s a life long process.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness25 is righteous, just as Jesus26 is righteous. cf John 15:4-15

The underlined I agree with but you view of imparting of justification is OSASish.

The born again Christian has a new nature, is a new creature. They WILL desire and practice righteousness. So we agree. However, we might disagree with the underlying causes and effects of the new nature we have received.

My son is four years old. While playing in the yard he stepped in dog poo. He hopped into the house on one foot crying and wanting me to clean his foot off. Why? Because he is human, he has a human nature. Now, if he were a pig or a dog, he might have rolled around in it without any issues. The Christian is born again. A new nature has been given. A new nature now abides in the believer. The Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Jesus Christ, is abiding in the believer. The believer has now become ONE with Christ Jesus. When a born again believer sins, they will feel convicted of said sin. Why? Why don’t they just feel free to “live it up”? Because of the new nature. They realize that their actions are not congruent with the abiding nature within. They will desire to be clean. In prayer they will fall before the Heavenly Father pleading for Him to cleanse them. Sin will therefore not be a “practice” or continued behavior for the born again Christian. It is IMPOSSIBLE. They are new creatures.

You are a male by nature. You might choose to wear women’s clothing, wear makeup, and even act like a woman. But you are NOT a woman. Why? Because you don’t have a female human nature. Now, if you’re born again, and the Spirit of Christ abides in you, guess what…you’ll want to give those dresses to a lady, stop wearing the makeup, and begin acting like the man you are. Why? Because Christ Himself is living through you. The disciplines don’t make you righteous. I know men who have the Christian disciplines down, and put us all to shame. But…they don’t have that abiding relationship with Jesus. They are pure religionists. They think that their works make them righteousness. Their righteousness is self generated, a “self righteousness”. However, Luke, you have the Spirit of Jesus abiding in you. You are a partaker in the very nature of Jesus Christ. You have new nature. By virtue of your being a new creature…you LOVE righteousness and feel compelled, yes, even rejoice, in doing righteousness. But don’t take the credit. It’s not you…it’s Christ in you. Jesus is your everything. Jesus is the very air you breathe.

Many believers think that their actions determine if they love Jesus or not. And yes, actions are a gauge, but they are not the final determining factor. They are merely an indicator.

Let me ask you a question. It will fully reveal if you’re looking at this legalistically, or biblically. How does a saint of God who is struggling with Christian disciplines and sin increase their love for Jesus, thereby bringing a life that is congruent with the new nature imparted to them? I’d like to know your answer. I’ll share my thoughts afterwards. We both might be able to take away something from the other’s answer to this question.

God bless and keep you.

P.S.
When it comes to being justified by faith (Romans 5:1-10), we simply accept it. It’s just as true as John 3:16, Acts 2:38.

With regards to Jesus being your propitiation....Jesus isn’t partly your propitiation. Jesus is either your entire propitiation or He isn’t your propitiation at all.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jimmyjay

If we love the Lord with all we have, we will be perfect and keep his comandments. Search the scriptures daily. It is a comandment that we read the book. Won't it be wonderful there. Bless the Lord, Praise Jesus.

Excellent point. Here's a question for us to just mull over... it will help to avoid legalism.

How does a believer who desires that level of victory acheive a love for Christ that is sufficient to overcome sin and bring desire for a loving obedience?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I am afraid I am a long ways from perfect....

I believe you are perfect. Oh, maybe not in yourself, you'll have ups and downs, victories and defeats... but in Him you are absolutely perfect. The book of Colossians states that you are complete in Him. Nothing needs to be added. You're just being conformed into His image. That's a life long process of sanctification, as prompted by the indwelling Holy Ghost.

The pages have been stained... by the blood He shed for you. God doesn't see the sins or imperfections. He sees only... Jesus Christ.

[Sister Alvear]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe you are perfect. Oh, maybe not in yourself, you'll have ups and downs, victories and defeats... but in Him you are absolutely perfect. The book of Colossians states that you are complete in Him. Nothing needs to be added. You're just being conformed into His image. That's a life long process of sanctification, as prompted by the indwelling Holy Ghost.

The pages have been stained... by the blood He shed for you. God doesn't see the sins or imperfections. He sees only... Jesus Christ.

THANK YOU...hope HE agrees with you...

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Jesus was accused of the same thing.

So you "ain't" Jesus!

Besides, I didn’t get the memo stating that you were authorized to be the arbitrator of truth.

Scripture is truth and you don't like it.

Man is totally depraved and is incapable of achieving holiness in the human self.

Man is incapable of being perfect not of simply doing good.

Righteousness is imparted by God’s Spirit alone.

LOL seriously you need to learn what justice/righteousness is and it is not Reformed doctrines view of impartation like Lutzer and Sproul teach.


Conerning your comment. It is true but it depends on what it is in reference to. Technically it is wrong. Righteousness is imparted by the very Word of God or his divine expression in any form. The law was the righteousness of God. EVen reformed teachers teach that.

One cannot work their way to Heaven, for if righteousness could come by obedience to a law, Christ died in vain.

From that previous point to this you are talking about two different realities and point of Paul and confusing it with others.

In myself no I cannot do what God demands as I am flesh and I am spirit and I cannot in myself know God's perfection and how to do justice toward all. The reason Christ died has many aspects but it has nothing to do with negating practical righteousness to the leading of God will how we are judged to receive eternal life. Justice toward sin could not be acheived by the law to those who had faith. Christ had to obtain that authority of which the LAW was a shadow of. We recieve the righteousness of Christ in two ways. Perfection to do God's will by the Spirit and forgiveness of sin by a new covenant of which CHrist is head in which he imparts his nature/righteousness to us which is his LEADING to do. Instead of on stone it is by his Spirit in which we realize perfection. Not a forensic justification for eternity at faith but practical justification by our response to his leading. THAT is what prophecy says.

I see elements of Pelagianism (a false doctrine) in many of the posts you’ve written.

It wuld be semi-pelagianism. Oh and that would be the view of the first centuries of the church Mr. GREEK FATHERS!

No… we are righteous because He is righteous.

Really... Yes we are righteous because if we FOLLOW we will DO righteous because HE is righteous. LOL

The moment you are born again, you are declared righteous in God’s sight.

Really... That would be because the context of the message is to receive covenant standing by faith in his work. I am already seen right of heart before covenant standing when a person believes. That does not mean I have received salvation yet though nor does simply believing have I been forgiven and removed from me. Nor does it mean I have been born again. Simple belief is a "righteous thing" but it doesn't mean I am in right standing concerning my sins etc...

The born again Christian has a new nature, is a new creature. They WILL desire and practice righteousness. So we agree. However, we might disagree with the underlying causes and effects of the new nature we have received.

My son is four years old. While playing in the yard he stepped in dog poo. He hopped into the house on one foot crying and wanting me to clean his foot off. Why? Because he is human, he has a human nature.

You child seeing a "accident" immediately turned to be cleansed. Also I would have issue with

1) knowlege to do vs intentional.

Now, if he were a pig or a dog, he might have rolled around in it without any issues. The Christian is born again. A new nature has been given. A new nature now abides in the believer. The Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Jesus Christ, is abiding in the believer.

The nature is the ABIDING Spirit and Jesus clearly teaches how abiding works. Paul also clearly teaches it. If you follow/led by which is a active realization of response you are children of God. That is a practical response to the righteousness/leading of the Spirit in which we are judged positionally.

The believer has now become ONE with Christ Jesus.

If he follows he is ONE.

When a born again believer sins, they will feel convicted of said sin. Why? Why don’t they just feel free to “live it up”? Because of the new nature

.

They feel conviction yes and the law brought convicion as well as does ALL KNOWLEDGE!

They realize that their actions are not congruent with the abiding nature within. They will desire to be clean.

Maybe maybe not.

In prayer they will fall before the Heavenly Father pleading for Him to cleanse them. Sin will therefore not be a “practice” or continued behavior for the born again Christian. It is IMPOSSIBLE. They are new creatures.

Partially true. you are making absolutes of black and white conversion and that is not the case NOR is it what scripture teaches. People are given the righteousness/spirit/nature of christ but that does not mean they remain and follow him. Grace is the impartation of the Spirit TO DO the will of God.

You are a male by nature. You might choose to wear women’s clothing, wear makeup, and even act like a woman. But you are NOT a woman. Why? Because you don’t have a female human nature. Now, if you’re born again, and the Spirit of Christ abides in you, guess what…you’ll want to give those dresses to a lady, stop wearing the makeup, and begin acting like the man you are. Why? Because Christ Himself is living through you.

YES IF I choose to CONTINUE TO FOLLOW! Because a person has received the knowledge/righteousness/leading/nature of the Spirit does not mean I will continue. I choose to be a SERVANT. His impartation of the Spirit does not make me obey.

The disciplines don’t make you righteous.

God giving you righteousness by Spirit vs writen code does not change how God does justice toward mans response. You are righeous because God leads you and you CHOOSE to walk by faith. The discipline is the SPIRIT. How in the world can you make the two not the same. LOL The law of the SPIRIT is our discipline and it is our righteousness by HIM who is the source of the righteousness. If we don't obey are not righteous.

I know men who have the Christian disciplines down, and put us all to shame. But…they don’t have that abiding relationship with Jesus. They are pure religionists. They think that their works make them righteousness.

Their works give them if led by the Spirit God's consideration and judgment of being "right of heart." If they are doing it through the flesh they will fail.

IF what you said is true then you are deceivd. HOW in the WORLD can a BY FLESH seeking righteousness put to shame the righteousness of someone who is led by the SPirit?

Their righteousness is self generated, a “self righteousness”. However, Luke, you have the Spirit of Jesus abiding in you. You are a partaker in the very nature of Jesus Christ. You have new nature.

Having a new nature imparted does not make me righteous in itself. It allows me to now the will of God. I am righteous IF I do the will of him that is in me not simply because HE is in me.

By virtue of your being a new creature…you LOVE righteousness and feel compelled, yes, even rejoice, in doing righteousness. But don’t take the credit. It’s not you…it’s Christ in you. Jesus is your everything. Jesus is the very air you breathe.

He is if I choose him not because he is there compelling me.

Many believers think that their actions determine if they love Jesus or not. And yes, actions are a gauge, but they are not the final determining factor. They are merely an indicator.

Uh for now I will say NO as I am unsure what your whole meaning is behind this statement.

Let me ask you a question. It will fully reveal if you’re looking at this legalistically, or biblically. How does a saint of God who is struggling with Christian disciplines and sin increase their love for Jesus, thereby bringing a life that is congruent with the new nature imparted to them?

If the Christain knows...

1) If they are struggling to do. They need to pray and fast and seek the elders of the church and the body and lean on God for his strength in the time of temptation. If they continue to fail most likely they are simply appeasing the flesh that... hey I tried. If you love me you will obey my commandments. He has not given us anything we cannot overcome. We don't dwell in sin.

I’d like to know your answer. I’ll share my thoughts afterwards. We both might be able to take away something from the other’s answer to this question.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

THANK YOU...hope HE agrees with you...

I believe He agrees with His Word. If God saw it any other way... who'd have a chance?

I find this interesting. The legalistic crowd who are so quick to dismiss justification by faith and the finished work of Christ being our propitiation, proclaiming that we have to do righteous works to be saved, ignore their own sin and imperfections, believing that somehow they're going to receive special treatment by God. I haven't met a perfect legalist yet. According to their own paradigm... they themselves aren't going to Heaven.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe He agrees with His Word. If God saw it any other way... who'd have a chance?

I find this interesting. The legalistic crowd who are so quick to dismiss justification by faith and the finished work of Christ being our propitiation, proclaiming that we have to do righteous works to be saved, ignore their own sin and imperfections, believing that somehow they're going to receive special treatment by God. I haven't met a perfect legalist yet. According to their own paradigm... they themselves aren't going to Heaven.

Under your paradigm aquila. Those that are called are chosen. I also love you just throw out a wide ranging use of "perfect" that is not what is argued. Typical! Aquila will you be judged in the end saved or given eternal life without works/faith? If you don't believe the living righteousness that is in us which is the living Spirit of Christ does not practically save us from ourselves by FAITH and we ae judged righteous by it. You teach a lawless God and gospel an a false doctrine of grace.