Come Out Of Her My People

[n david]

Originally Posted by renee819

And what the RCC has put into place has led to sin. It was sin in the first place, because, …Constantine, for Political reasons, a Pagan until he died, took churches away from Pagan Priests and gave them, to the Christians. Which sounds great, but at what price? They had to compromise, agree to baptize in the Trinity.

It is a sin to compromise with False Doctrine.

Constantine built the first church in Constantinople, which is documented. It's also documented that he considered himself a Christian and was baptized later in life. Not saying he was right, only that history states he was influenced by his mother and declared himself to be a Christian. Where is it written that in order to have the churches, they had to agree to baptize in the Trinity?

Originally Posted by renee819

Of course Tithes were in the OT.

You gave a list of a few things you claimed were started by the RCC, you listed tithes among them; my point was not to debate whether or not it should be in practice today, the point was it was not something started by the RCC. The origins were in the OT.

Originally Posted by renee819

Again to find Priests, and Synagogues, you have to go back to the Old Testament.

What was Jesus doing, and where was he doing it when he went missing for several days as a child? He was teaching in the Synagogue. That's NT. There are several stories of Jesus and the Apostles which show them being at the Temple or Synagogue.

As for clergy being a "sin" we've taken from the TCC, Paul disagrees in Ephesians 4

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

You mentioned that the hierarchy of Clergy and Laity was started by the RCC, and while they do have their positions, it does not mean that all churches are in sin because they have a Pastor over them with other church leaders as well. Why would Paul speak of these ministries and positions as being given by God, if it were not to be implemented and followed?

Originally Posted by renee819

Jesus told the Apostles,...

You are taking this out of context and meaning. This was in response to a mother who wanted her two sons to be seated at the right and left hand of God. This is not speaking about the church.

Originally Posted by renee819

I've met many ministers that claim to be humble, and are there to minister to the people, but if you try to point out what you think is not right, see what happens. I have seen it happen over and over again. For instance, there was a big split in the church that I belonged to, for over 30 yrs. Over toeless shoes.

This takes me back to something you mentioned in your first post above...

Originally Posted by renee819

And this makes my 3rd Sunday to a Pentecostal Church. I talked to the Pastor a few minutes after church, and told him, I didn't believe in man-made laws for the church. But we didn't have time to discuss it.
It seems they may be pretty strict on the UPC rules, although I believe they are Independent. I told the Pastor that we, he, his wife, and I, need to set down and have a talk. But we haven't yet. Any suggestions?

On your 3rd visit to a church, you tell a Pastor that you don't believe in man-made laws for the church and that you, him and his wife need to have a talk...? What are you hoping to gain from this?

I've seen church splits as well. They're mostly started by someone who starts coming to a church, who disagrees with what the Pastor is preaching/teaching and instead of removing themselves from the church, they demand to speak with the Pastor to give their thoughts about how he's wrong....and then when the Pastor doesn't give in to their demands, they go through the church, causing division.

Originally Posted by renee819

Do you practice prayer (beads) and communion the same way that the RCC does? I'm not really saying that we have to abandon buildings. I don't know what to say about that. But if they are set up as little Kingdoms with a King (man) as the ruler. Then I see no other way than to abandon the whole system. But any man in that position is not likely to do so.

There was a man who was in the church I attend now. He helped in the music department and even preached/taught from time to time. Out of the blue, he decided to leave the church; like you, he didn't believe in a man being over a church. Ironically, he decided he was going to start his own church. When I asked who would lead, he said "I will, of course."

Any kind of gathering, whether it's in a home or a large building, can have a "little kingdom" issue. The problem isn't with brick and mortar, the problem is flesh and pride.

You say, "I'm not really saying that we have to abandon buildings," but your first post says just that: "And the only way that I see 'to come out of her' is to start Home Churches by those that are completely dedicated to God."

[renee819]

Originally Posted by Rudy

I don't think we have to abandon buildings IMO. There is no command to build one is all.. As you probably know the church is the people. We are all in a royal priesthood and have direct access to the throne. There are no special ones {clergy} as earthly intercessors for the lowly laity.

Thank you Rudy, I agree

[n david]

Originally Posted by Rudy

I don't think we have to abandon buildings IMO. There is no command to build one is all.. As you probably know the church is the people. We are all in a royal priesthood and have direct access to the throne. There are no special ones {clergy} as earthly intercessors for the lowly laity.

I agree we don't need to abandon buildings; though the first post stated "And the only way that I see 'to come out of her' is to start Home Churches by those that are completely dedicated to God."

Home churches, church buildings...we're missing the point if this is what it has come down to.

At the time of the Apostles, there was only the Temple and Synagogues. I've never heard anyone say we're commanded to build buildings. Quite simply, the early church met where they could. Since at that time there were no church buildings, they met in homes and other areas. I also understand the NT church is not a building, but the people; I also agree that we're all part of a royal priesthood with direct access to God.

Regarding clergy, there are God-given roles within the body of Christ, as Paul writes of in Ephesians 4. It does not mean they are "special ones," but they are there "...for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." And he gives a reason they are needed: "That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive."

[Timmy]

Think of the possibilities! No one telling you what to believe or what to preach. No chain of command. No accountability. No denominations. Er, well, actually, zillions more denominations!

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Think of the possibilities! No one telling you what to believe or what to preach. No chain of command. No accountability. No denominations. Er, well, actually, zillions more denominations!

Church of the Dallas Stars

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by navygoat1998

Church of the Dallas Stars

[renee819]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Placing the question mark on the end of that sentence sums up this whole thread.

Evang Ben, most of what I put on here is from the Word of God.
After I started seriously studying about 50--55 yrs ago.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by renee819

Come Out Of Her My People

Let's face it. We are ruled in the churches by Pagan Christianity.
It was the Catholic Church that brought in the Trinity baptism.
The hierarchy of Clergy and Laity.
The paying of tithes.
Church buildings
And many other things.

And the only way that I see “to come out of her” is to start Home Churches by those that are completely dedicated to God.

Originally Posted by renee819

It was the Catholic Church that brought in the Trinity baptism.

I assume you mean the RCC. So unless you are using a very liberal interpretation for the RCC the trinity baptism was not started by the RCC. Most (the I have spoken to) assume the RCC began when Constantine came to power and wrote the edict of Milan. This was in the fourth century. Trinity baptism was used by many long before this in the third century. Therefore, you don't know your history.

Originally Posted by renee819

The hierarchy of Clergy and Laity.

Perhaps you have never read:
Act 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers (G1985), to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

G1985
ἐπίσκοπος
episkopos
Thayer Definition:
1) an overseer
1a) a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done by others are done rightly, any curator, guardian or superintendent
1b) the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a Christian church

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors (H7462) according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

H7462
רעה
râ‛âh
BDB Definition:
1) to pasture, tend, graze, feed
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to tend, pasture
1a1a) to shepherd
1a1b) of ruler, teacher (figuratively)
1a1c) of people as flock (figuratively)
1a1d) shepherd, herdsman (substantive)

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Sounds like an hierarchy to me...

Originally Posted by renee819

The paying of tithes.

Seriously?
Let's get this straight you have attacked the ministry, claimed that it was the RCC that brought in the trinity baptism and now you are attacking tithes. In those immortal words...

Good Grief!

Why in the narrative of Abraham and Melchizedek do we find Abraham paying tithes? Who told him to do this? Where is the instruction for this? It just seemingly appears out of nowhere. Then there is Jacob who promises a tithes of all he had. All before the Levitical system. Why a tithe (which is ten percent, always)? Why not five percent or fifteen percent? Why always ten percent, a tithe?

I will not get into all this because it is pointless. I will however state that tithes were paid by most ancient culture before the Levitical system and after.
Note: Edited out the word "every" and replaced with "most" in the sentence above. I don't have my notes handy currently but as I recall most ancient civilizations did in fact tithe to their deities. This is written about consistently by Herodotus. If need be I can confirm this later.

Then there is:
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour (G5092), especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

It is clear that in context Paul is dealing with the monetary livlihood of the ministry and invokes that Levitical Law concerning animals that are treading the corn. The ministry is worthy of their reward!

G5092
τιμή
timē
Thayer Definition:
1) a valuing by which the price is fixed
1a) of the price itself
1b) of the price paid or received for a person or thing bought or sold
2) honour which belongs or is shown to one
2a) of the honour which one has by reason of rank and state of office which he holds
2b) deference, reverence

VWS
Double honor (διπλῆς τιμῆς)
This at least includes pecuniary remuneration for services, if it is not limited to that. The use of τιμή as pay or price appears Mat_27:6, Mat_27:9; Act_4:34; Act_7:16; 1Co_6:20...

Tithing was in fact established among all civilizations prior to the Law.
Tithing was practiced prior to the Law in the Bible.
Tithing was used during the Law.
Jesus tithed.

Because tithing was established prior to the Law and during the Law please demonstrate where Jesus said not to tithe.
Since there are no scriptures where Jesus said tithing is abolished please demonstrate where any of the Apostles declared tithing to be null and void.

You can't.

Originally Posted by renee819

Church buildings

Wow is all I can say. Now it is sin to have a "church building". How absolutely absurd!
Synagogues were the early churches. For example:
Act 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Act 18:7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.


Facts are truly pesky things...


Let's face it. There are a lot of carnal "Christians" espousing doctrines they have no idea what they are talking about.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by renee819

Evang Ben, most of what I put on here is from the Word of God.
After I started seriously studying about 50--55 yrs ago.

Sister, do you believe that Presbyterian, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Southern Baptist Convention, United Pentecostal Church Intentional, and Roman Catholic Church Theologians and scholars have put in just the same amount of time as you? Some of these men not just reading English translations but studying manuscripts, and documents in the original languages? Sister, please, "most" of what you put on here is "scripture?" Sister that is like Matthew Henry saying that most of what he had written in his commentaries is "mostly" scripture, while that is a true statement for both of you, you obviously don't come to the same conclusion but both would say that your writings are "mostly" scripture.

The Bible should be able to flesh itself out when given the chance, and must be kept in its context to be understood. The information being handled within its prophetic frame work is dealing with those who were waiting for the promise to be fulfilled. Why would John tell people living in his time to reckon the number of the beast, if that beast wouldn't even be on the scene for 2,000 years. Why would he require them to have wisdom to figure something out that would NEVER be able to be deciphered until the year 2013?

You've been studying for 50 something years? Praise Jesus, may you be guided by the Spirit of Truth, and not the spirit of agenda.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Come Out Of Her My People

Let's face it. We are ruled in the churches by Pagan Christianity.
It was the Catholic Church that brought in the Trinity baptism.
The hierarchy of Clergy and Laity.
The paying of tithes.
Church buildings
And many other things.

And the only way that I see “to come out of her” is to start Home Churches by those that are completely dedicated to God.
/QUOTE]

It was the Catholic Church that brought in the Trinity baptism.
I assume you mean the RCC. So unless you are using a very liberal interpretation for the RCC the trinity baptism was not started by the RCC. Most (the I have spoken to) assume the RCC began when Constantine came to power and wrote the edict of Milan. This was in the fourth century. Trinity baptism was used by many long before this in the third century. Therefore, you don't know your history.


The hierarchy of Clergy and Laity.
Perhaps you have never read:
Act 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers (G1985), to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

G1985
ἐπίσκοπος
episkopos
Thayer Definition:
1) an overseer
1a) a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done by others are done rightly, any curator, guardian or superintendent
1b) the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a Christian church

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors (H7462) according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

H7462
רעה
râ‛âh
BDB Definition:
1) to pasture, tend, graze, feed
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to tend, pasture
1a1a) to shepherd
1a1b) of ruler, teacher (figuratively)
1a1c) of people as flock (figuratively)
1a1d) shepherd, herdsman (substantive)

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Sounds like an hierarchy to me...


The paying of tithes.
Seriously?
Let's get this straight you have attacked the ministry, claimed that it was the RCC that brought in the trinity baptism and now you are attacking tithes. In those immortal words...

Good Grief!

Why in the narrative of Abraham and Melchizedek do we find Abraham paying tithes? Who told him to do this? Where is the instruction for this? It just seemingly appears out of nowhere. Then there is Jacob who promises a tithes of all he had. All before the Levitical system. Why a tithe (which is ten percent, always)? Why not five percent or fifteen percent? Why always ten percent, a tithe?

I will not get into all this because it is pointless. I will however state that tithes were paid by every ancient culture before the Levitical system and after.

Then there is:
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour (G5092), especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

It is clear that in context Paul is dealing with the monetary livlihood of the ministry and invokes that Levitical Law concerning animals that are treading the corn. The ministry is worthy of their reward!

G5092
τιμή
timē
Thayer Definition:
1) a valuing by which the price is fixed
1a) of the price itself
1b) of the price paid or received for a person or thing bought or sold
2) honour which belongs or is shown to one
2a) of the honour which one has by reason of rank and state of office which he holds
2b) deference, reverence

VWS
Double honor (διπλῆς τιμῆς)
This at least includes pecuniary remuneration for services, if it is not limited to that. The use of τιμή as pay or price appears Mat_27:6, Mat_27:9; Act_4:34; Act_7:16; 1Co_6:20...

Tithing was in fact established among all civilizations prior to the Law.
Tithing was practiced prior to the Law in the Bible.
Tithing was used during the Law.
Jesus tithed.

Because tithing was established prior to the Law and during the Law please demonstrate where Jesus said not to tithe.
Since there are no scriptures where Jesus said tithing is abolished please demonstrate where any of the Apostles declared tithing to be null and void.

You can't.


Church buildings
Wow is all I can say. Now it is sin to have a "church building". How absolutely absurd!
Synagogues were the early churches. For example:
Act 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Act 18:7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.


Facts are truly pesky things...


Let's face it. There are a lot of carnal "Christians" espousing doctrines they have no idea what they are talking about.

Pliny, could you fix your post, I don't know where Renee's post ends, and your's begins.