I'm not going to feel guilt for something that happened years ago. I am going to enjoy the day with my family and be thankful! There are thousands of things we can manufacture guilt for but I try not to.
Ok, but do you feel the same about the Holocaust issue and the American slavery issue? I mean you would be able to tell all those who want to keep bringing up the Holocaust to get over it and move on, wouldn't you? Also those who bring up reparations concerning their ancestors who were once promised 30 acres and a mule, you would tell them to stop trying to make good decent people feel guilty for something that happened years ago. Right?
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
Now, before all you turkey eating, cider swallowing, football watching Thanksgivingites get upset, please consider this....
Isn't celebrating Thanksgiving in the U.S. like setting aside a day in Germany to celebrate the Holocaust? I know that no one (that I know of) on this forum is celebrating the genocide of the American Indian when they sit down with family and friends to engorge themselves with cranberries smothered in gluten. No, but isn't it something to ponder that after six decades of landing at Plymouth Rock, the Europeans had forever destroyed a culture that had inhabited the area for thousands of years prior to the arrival of the Mayflower? I mean, who was really thankful? It sure wasn't the Indians, because in 1620 the Europeans landed on Plymouth Rock, then 55 years later by 1675, the Puritans would almost decimate the entire Wampanoag tribe.
A tribe which included more than 30,000 people with a highly organized governmental system. They were reduced to no more than 2,000 Indians at the end of what would be called "King Philip’s War." King Phillip was known by his people as Metacomet, the son of Chief Massasoit who would welcome the Pilgrims to the New World (old world to the Indians) Metacomet would fight a war against the Puritans who were trying to move Wampanoag off their happy hunting grounds. Yet, as most Indian vs the paleface situations go, Metacomet lost.
Yet, the Puritans wanted to send a message to every Indian in New England just what can happen if they decide to get uppity. They decapitated Metacomet "King Phillip," his head was piked at the entrance of Fort Plymouth where it remained for TWO decades.
Now, I would also like to add here, that Metacomet "King Phillip" was what the Puritans called a "Praying Indian" meaning, he was a convert to the Puritan form of Christianity, he was baptized into their faith. But alas this didn't deter the Europeans who set their buckled shoes on Plymouth Rock from later on killing the Indians they once baptized. So, with all that being said, may you all have a wonderful day of fellowship and light fun. But please remember as you sink your teeth into that turkey drumstick which MeeMaw took such loving care and time to cook (98.00 bird?) to reflect and to be really thankful, not just on November 27th, but every day of the year. Because you might just be living on some land that was once inhabited by a tribe who no longer lives there. Maybe they we marched from one state to another (force marches, perish the thought) maybe you even live near an area where a massacre took place, or even by the res. Be thankful that you are free to live where you want to live, and practice your religion, ( or not practice) however you like. So, have a nice day, and spend that day wisely.
Thanksgiving was not instituted to celebrate genocide of Indians.
Indians were not systematically wiped out by the Pilgrims, nor was there violence at first. Yes later there was bloodshed but I would not call that genocide
A Lot of people on both sides of the argument would be surprised to learn the facts of the first settlers AND How our Thanksgiving Holiday began
The absolute ignorance of history and the bible by some in our generation astonishes me at times.
First, fact is there are NO true "natives" of any land. Period.
Different tribes of mankind have moved from one area to another killing each other in the process - it's called "sin" and EVERY man and woman has that nature at birth. One can read about it in this book called the "Bible."
So, let me see if I understand you, since man is sinful, we give him a pass for genocide?
Yes? No?
Since no one really owns or belongs to any piece of property on the planet, and man is sinful, occupation, subjugation, and genocide shouldn't be discouraged?
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
Thanksgiving was not instituted to celebrate genocide of Indians.
Never said it was instituted to remember the genocide of the Indians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Indians were not systematically wiped out by the Pilgrims, nor was there violence at first. Yes later there was bloodshed but I would not call that genocide.
The Wampanoag tribe was whittled down from 30,000 to 2,000 that's not genocide because 2,000 manged to survive?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
A Lot of people on both sides of the argument would be surprised to learn the facts of the first settlers AND How our Thanksgiving Holiday began
I understand the whole history of how Thanksgiving became a national holiday, but what the real irony here is that the coming of the Puritan Europeans didn't bring anything to be thankful about to a people who were already living in North Eastern America. The Washington Post snippet makes everything pretty much vanilla, when the facts remain, like Columbus landing in Hispaniola which caused GENOCIDE of the Taíno Indians, the Pilgrims landing in Plymouth Massachusetts not the advent of Christian love, but death.
The Pequot, the Narraganset, and the Wampanoag all fell under the buckled shoes of the Puritans, and in time the rest of the American Indian population was next on the menu when the Europeans decided to populate the rest of the country.
Yet, I think I know what you are trying to get at with the websites you offered.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
Never said it was instituted to remember the genocide of the Indians.
The Wampanoag tribe was whittled down from 30,000 to 2,000 that's not genocide because 2,000 manged to survive?
I understand the whole history of how Thanksgiving became a national holiday, but what the real irony here is that the coming of the Puritan Europeans didn't bring anything to be thankful about to a people who were already living in North Eastern America. The Washington Post snippet makes everything pretty much vanilla, when the facts remain, like Columbus landing in Hispaniola which caused GENOCIDE of the Taíno Indians, the Pilgrims landing in Plymouth Massachusetts not the advent of Christian love, but death.
The Pequot, the Narraganset, and the Wampanoag all fell under the buckled shoes of the Puritans, and in time the rest of the American Indian population was next on the menu when the Europeans decided to populate the rest of the country.
Yet, I think I know what you are trying to get at with the websites you offered.
Genocide is a systematic slaughtering of a race.
What happened to one tribe may not have been based on the attempt to slaughter them because they wanted to kill all Indians. Read the history and you'll see there was growing strife between various tribes AND the Pilgrims.
It was a war and in wars often one side loses
The Pilgrims did not wear buckles.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
The strife was not "Pilgrims vs Indians". The Strife was both groups were involved and the "Indian" side made up of several tribes
Some of that Strife was started by the indian guide the Pilgrims had
Quote:
After attempts to increase his own power by turning the Pilgrims against Massasoit, Squanto died in 1622, while serving as Bradford's guide on an expedition around Cape Cod.
It was the Indians that did not like the settlers, not the other way around necessarily that was the problem (Not excusing them being settlers but you can see how they may have wanted to defend themselves and not merely practiced genocide)
Quote:
Other tribes, such as the Massachusetts and Narragansetts, were not so well disposed towards European settlers, and Massasoit's alliance with the Pilgrims disrupted relations among Native American peoples in the region
And now, for the rest of the story
Quote:
Over the next decades, relations between settlers and Native Americans deteriorated as the former group occupied more and more land. By the time William Bradford died in 1657, he had already expressed anxiety that New England would soon be torn apart by violence. In 1675, Bradford's predictions came true, in the form of King Philip's War. (Philip was the English name of Metacomet, the son of Massasoit and leader of the Pokanokets since the early 1660s.) That conflict left some 5,000 inhabitants of New England dead, three quarters of those Native Americans. In terms of percentage of population killed, King Philip's War was more than twice as costly as the American Civil War and seven times more so than the American Revolution.
You see? If the Settlers were guilty of something, it was growing and occupying more land. It appears the Indians might have been the agressors as far as War was concerned and the Settlers also lost lives. That's called War not Genocide.
I'd say that even if the Indians were not the aggressors, there was a gradual build up of animosity on both sides. The result was war and one side in wars are usually more victorious
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
The Wampanoag tribe was whittled down from 30,000 to 2,000 that's not genocide because 2,000 manged to survive?
The Wampanoag tribe were whittled down by desease not war or genocide
There were sixty-seven tribes and bands of the Wampanoag Nation. Three epidemics swept across New England between 1614 and 1620, killing many Native peoples. Some villages were entirely wiped out (such as Patuxet). When the colonists we now call Pilgrims arrived in 1620, there were fewer than 2,000 Wampanoag. After English colonists settled in Massachusetts, epidemics continued to reduce the Wampanoag to 1,000 by 1675. Only 400 survived King Philip’s War.
Then, again, War broke out after an Indian leader (Called King Phillip) came into power..
The colonists actively worked to convert the Wampanoag to Christianity. Those who did convert were called “praying Indians.” There were many differences between the groups, which eventually led to conflicts. For example, colonists let their livestock run loose and destroy Wampanoag crops. Still, the treaty was honored until 1662, when Metacomet, known to the English as King Philip, became the tribe’s leader, and relations between the Wampanoag and colonists became very tense. In 1675, hostilities broke out in the town of Swansea. The conflict, know as King Philip’s War, soon spread to the New Hampshire and Connecticut colonies. King Philip’s War was one of the bloodiest and costliest wars in American history.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Ok, but do you feel the same about the Holocaust issue and the American slavery issue? I mean you would be able to tell all those who want to keep bringing up the Holocaust to get over it and move on, wouldn't you? Also those who bring up reparations concerning their ancestors who were once promised 30 acres and a mule, you would tell them to stop trying to make good decent people feel guilty for something that happened years ago. Right?
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