If You Have To Wear Make Up To Be Rejected... - Page 3

Luke · #21 07-24-2014, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Nice way of side stepping the question. lol.... Specifically then, provide an instance out of the gospels where Jesus taught and where He specifically mentioned a dress code, or standard of appearance in relationship to salvation.

In the gospels there is no place that links dress code to salvation. Does this mean that it is not important in the retention of one's salvation?

Since I answered you please answer my question

I challenge you to find one verse in the new testament gospels that condemns or even speaks of incestous marriage or rape. These are both things I feel we can agree are wrong and sinful so please show me.

KeptByTheWord · #22 07-24-2014, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke

In the gospels there is no place that links dress code to salvation. Does this mean that it is not important in the retention of one's salvation?

Actually, Jesus dealt constantly with the self righteous Pharisees and condemned them for their self righteous attitudes that they carried, along with their long robes, and Sabbath traditions, and so on. What you will find in the gospels is Jesus actually condemning the Pharisees for their emphasis on outer appearance, and Jesus began teaching them that the matters of the heart should be their main focus.

So yes, Jesus absolutely did deal with outward standards of dress and tradition - He condemned the attitude that stems from the self righteous traditions that the Pharisees exhibited. Nowhere in the gospels can you find Jesus praising or exalting anyone for their standards of holiness or dress, but instead, you find scathing words against such attitudes.

This is very important to understand. It is not the standard that Jesus was condemning per se, but the self righteous heart attitude that went along with that standard. This is where the problem lies. Fixing up the outward appearance is far easier than tending to the ugliness that lies just below the surface in our hearts. And THAT is what Jesus tried to teach throughout his earthly ministry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke

Since I answered you please answer my question

I challenge you to find one verse in the new testament gospels that condemns or even speaks of incestous marriage or rape. These are both things I feel we can agree are wrong and sinful so please show me.

The ten commandments still stand. Evil does not have to be spelled out word for word. Jesus took the ten commandments, and made them even simpler, by condensing them into two - Love the Lord your God, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Luke · #23 07-24-2014, 04:53 PM

Actually you are incorrect Jesus never condemned the Pharasiees for their outward righteousness rather for requirering it and not doing it themselves. Secondly He condemned them them for makeing the outside clean but not dealing with he inside. Thirdly Jesus condemns the Pharasiees for pride. No where does Jesus ever say the outside does not matter. Notice the following passage:

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
3 all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 and love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 and greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

It should be noticed that Jesus says that the people were to obey the teaching of the scribes and pharasiees. VRS. 3

Next notice that Jesus said that the pharasees should live righteously and also remember mercy and weighter matters of the law. VRS 23

Lastly you should notice that Jesus puts inside and outside purity on equal term in that He shows both are need to be clean. VRS 26

So I guess I was wrong in Matthew 23:26 Jesus teaches that the outside should be clean.

Luke · #24 07-24-2014, 04:56 PM

As you pointed out just because something is not stressed or mentioned in the gospels does not mean that those topics do not matter. Therefore as outward standards of dress are spoken of in other books of the Bible they are applicable to us and our salvation.

KeptByTheWord · #25 07-24-2014, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke

Actually you are incorrect Jesus never condemned the Pharasiees for their outward righteousness rather for requirering it and not doing it themselves. Secondly He condemned them them for makeing the outside clean but not dealing with he inside. Thirdly Jesus condemns the Pharasiees for pride. No where does Jesus ever say the outside does not matter. Notice the following passage:

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
3 all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 and love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 and greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

It should be noticed that Jesus says that the people were to obey the teaching of the scribes and pharasiees. VRS. 3

Next notice that Jesus said that the pharasees should live righteously and also remember mercy and weighter matters of the law. VRS 23

Lastly you should notice that Jesus puts inside and outside purity on equal term in that He shows both are need to be clean. VRS 26

So I guess I was wrong in Matthew 23:26 Jesus teaches that the outside should be clean.

While Jesus certainly taught that the inside should be as clean as the outside, he never majored on the minor of that teaching. Jesus never listed specifics regarding an outward standard of dress, but He certainly hammered the Pharisees heart attitudes. Jesus certainly never tied the outward mode of dress or appearance to salvation.

Instead, what we find Jesus teaching is that you can have a beautiful outward white washed seplechure with an evil heart, but you can't have a heart full of love for God, with its attitudes and condition in order, without it also appearing clean and beautiful on the outside.

Because of this understanding, Jesus didn't have to spend hours detailing the specifics of just how a believer should look and dress. Instead, he spoke directly to the heart issues, because He knew that once heart issues are resolved, the inner and outer man will be in unity.

When teachings major on the minor - which is teaching, listing, and detailing specifics for standard of dress and appearance, and spending very little time dealing with the issues that stem from the heart, this is when the Pharisaical mindset develops, and when the self-righteous attitudes manifest themselves.

You can pretty up the outside, but no amount of coverup can hide from the Lord the ugliness that dwells inside the heart. However, if the heart issues are dealt with, the inner man and the outer man will agree, and in that sense, one whose heart has been cleansed of spiritual sin, will naturally desire to have his appearance in such a way as to be pleasing unto the Lord.

It is in this way, I think, that holiness should be taught. It should be taught FIRST as a heart issue, and then to allow the spirit of the Lord to guide and direct one as to how to dress, live, and walk before the Lord.

Bro. Luke, I don't think you and I are far apart on the issue... but I did want to emphasize the fact that the importance placed on outward standards should not be the major, but rather the minor. If the inner man - which Jesus certainly considered to be the major issue that he dealt with - is cleaned up, and spiritual sins confessed and done away with, the outer man will of its own accord be willing to be conformed to a standard of dress, behavior, and attitude that will be worthy and fitting of a child of God, as led by the spirit of the Lord that resides in his heart.

Luke · #26 07-24-2014, 10:49 PM

I agree that hoiness is an inward work in that nothing you or I or do not do makes us holy. We are made holy by the blood of Jesus through faith at the point of entire sanctification when our hearts are purified and our carnal nature is removed. This is holiness to be separate from all sin. Not from sinners but from inward sin and practiced sin. Standards are not holiness but righteousness. However I do believe that we should preach on standards just as we should preach on any other bible doctrine. Standards should not be our only message and I would not even say it should be our dominate message. Rather we should preach freedom form the bondage of sin. True holiness in not bondage it is freedom.

votivesoul · #27 07-25-2014, 04:11 AM

Jesus clothed the demoniac after delivering the man from possession.

Clothing had to have mattered in some way or form to the Lord or He wouldn't have provided the man with garments, seeing as how the man had none of His own.

Additionally, we may assume just as easily that the reason why the Lord never much or ever addressed outward appearances is because back in His day, in the region of Israel, it may be that the Jewish people always dressed modestly, and so, it wasn't an issue.

I never read Jesus condemning abortion and/or exposing a child, but He did condemn murder, and so, by default, abortion and exposing a child (two common practices in ancient Rome), were condemned by the Lord without Him having to name the specifics.

Additionally, the Lord taught against lust and adultery, evil thoughts, pride, and etc., all of which can be easily linked back to the outer appearance of a person, and so, we can easily condemn any outer appearance that caters to lust, adultery, evil thoughts, pride, and etc. without having to point to a non-existent verse in the Gospels where Jesus never condemned someone for their outward appearance.