The point is that while the ancients didn't understand everything God was revealing to them in his Word... the Word doesn't contradict what we have found cosmologically. We can argue that the ancients believed this or believed that... all that shows is that their INTERPRETATION was wrong. The Word itself appears to support what has been found.
There is a barrier that protects our world - Firmament
There is water above the firmament - Interstellar Clouds
Can you show me one of these watery Interstellar Clouds? Show me one. And then describe just how this "water" is being held back from flooding the earth by ... any kind of whatever?
There is no solid barrier that protects our world. There is a relatively thin layer of gases trapped near the earth's surface that filters out harmful radiation - much of the time. Place a dime on a basketball. That's the thickness of our atmosphere in relation to the earth.
A literal application of "the Word" (in Genesis 1 - 11) will give you a false cosmology. There is no solid firmament holding back a watery abyss in the sky. There never was such a thing.
However the truths that God wanted to communicate to the ancients were real and are still true for us today. God did create the heavens and the earth, etc.
But show me one of those watery interstellar clouds that threatens to flood our planet if not for the intervention of the firmament.
*** I have read but not engaged in the other discussion concerning the perceived immorality of the OT commands to kill and such. The cosmology issue does intersect with this as NotForSale has shown when he brought it up. But to understand the differences in the moral outlook I think it's helpful if we understand first that the ancients had a completely different worldview - literally. Their world was not the one that the Age of Discovery found to exist.
Can you show me one of these watery Interstellar Clouds? Show me one. And then describe just how this "water" is being held back from flooding the earth by ... any kind of whatever?
There is no solid barrier that protects our world. There is a relatively thin layer of gases trapped near the earth's surface that filters out harmful radiation - much of the time. Place a dime on a basketball. That's the thickness of our atmosphere in relation to the earth.
A literal application of "the Word" (in Genesis 1 - 11) will give you a false cosmology. There is no solid firmament holding back a watery abyss in the sky. There never was such a thing.
However the truths that God wanted to communicate to the ancients were real and are still true for us today. God did create the heavens and the earth, etc.
But show me one of those watery interstellar clouds that threatens to flood our planet if not for the intervention of the firmament.
*** I have read but not engaged in the other discussion concerning the perceived immorality of the OT commands to kill and such. The cosmology issue does intersect with this as NotForSale has shown when he brought it up. But to understand the differences in the moral outlook I think it's helpful if we understand first that the ancients had a completely different worldview - literally. Their world was not the one that the Age of Discovery found to exist.
Excellent point. It might compare to the difference of living in the Forest, or the Desert. If the Forest is the only place you've ever known, a Desert might seem like an absolute myth.
People were restricted in Travel, unable to picture a Jungle on the other side of the World, leaving a Textbook that reflected a limited understanding.
Look what rocket science has done to the "View" we never had before.
How many did Samson kill with the Jaw Bone of a Donkey?
Chris, the Old Testament if FULL of blood and the killing of innocent people.
Then Jesus comes to this World and tells us to "Love our Enemy", "Turn the other Cheek".
I see this as a problem rooted in the lack of systematic theology. In the Old Testament you have a series of covenants. The Mosaic Covenant established a nation of people. This nation of people was to preserve the Word of God (the Bible) and provide a righteous blood line from which Messiah would be born. With God’s people being a nation you have to remember that the nations surrounding Israel were hostile not only to God but to God’s people. Had the Amalekites had their way every innocent Israelite would have been slaughtered and then there would be no Bible or Messiah to redeem mankind; same with the Philistines and the entire host of Israel’s enemies.
You also have to consider… all these nations belong to God. God alone has the authority to order the destruction of a nation. God alone knows their hearts. God alone knows the end from the beginning and what is necessary to preserve His Word and to redeem mankind.
When Jesus came on the scene the Tanakh was complete and being widely read throughout the Roman Empire in synagogues. Jesus atoned for mankind and now the Messianic mission was complete. When the Jews rejected Jesus they sealed their fate as a nation. It was because of their rejection of Jesus that God sent the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and take the people captive into all the nations. Now preserving a nation to harbor His Word and to birth the Messiah was unnecessary. The full message of salvation was complete for all of mankind. Now we live by the law of love that God intended from the beginning.
In addition, “Thou shalt not kill.”, is better translated, “Thou shalt not murder.”
I see this as a problem rooted in the lack of systematic theology. In the Old Testament you have a series of covenants. The Mosaic Covenant established a nation of people. This nation of people was to preserve the Word of God (the Bible) and provide a righteous blood line from which Messiah would be born. With God’s people being a nation you have to remember that the nations surrounding Israel were hostile not only to God but to God’s people. Had the Amalekites had their way every innocent Israelite would have been slaughtered and then there would be no Bible or Messiah to redeem mankind; same with the Philistines and the entire host of Israel’s enemies.
You also have to consider… all these nations belong to God. God alone has the authority to order the destruction of a nation. God alone knows their hearts. God alone knows the end from the beginning and what is necessary to preserve His Word and to redeem mankind.
When Jesus came on the scene the Tanakh was complete and being widely read throughout the Roman Empire in synagogues. Jesus atoned for mankind and now the Messianic mission was complete. When the Jews rejected Jesus they sealed their fate as a nation. It was because of their rejection of Jesus that God sent the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and take the people captive into all the nations. Now preserving a nation to harbor His Word and to birth the Messiah was unnecessary. The full message of salvation was complete for all of mankind. Now we live by the law of love that God intended from the beginning.
In addition, “Thou shalt not kill.”, is better translated, “Thou shalt not murder.”
Is it murder to put a sword through the belly of a child? How about an elderly person who is helpless? What about a woman who is pregnant?
Your explanation is full of holes (maybes, what ifs, might be's), not to mention a human being has always been a human being.
Today, there are hostile Nations on Earth that declare the Christian Faith a False Doctrine. The Country of Iran has leadership that considers Israel an all out threat to Planet Earth and would like to blow them off the map. Would a mass genocide of this Nation be accepted today? The Philistines still live next door to the Jews. Why not Nuke them?
Why shouldn't we have exterminated the Germans? Allow the Jews to go into this Country that attempted to genocide them.
You make it sound like it was different back then. The World has always been hostile. The theories you present are what all do to protect a false idea. It's "Out of Sight, Out of Mind". It's not today, so it's easy to explain it away with notions that are not only inhumane, but downright evil.
Bring genocide into your backyard, then judge. Look into the faces of these dead people, or watch the slaughter take place, then give us your theory.
Also, the full message to Mankind was not finished in Word when Jesus came. The New Testament hadn't even been written yet.
Is it murder to put a sword through the belly of a child? How about an elderly person who is helpless? What about a woman who is pregnant?
Your explanation is full of holes (maybes, what ifs, might be's), not to mention a human being has always been a human being.
Today, there are hostile Nations on Earth that declare the Christian Faith a False Doctrine. The Country of Iran has leadership that considers Israel an all out threat to Planet Earth and would like to blow them off the map. Would a mass genocide of this Nation be accepted today? The Philistines still live next door to the Jews. Why not Nuke them?
Why shouldn't we have exterminated the Germans? Allow the Jews to go into this Country that attempted to genocide them.
You make it sound like it was different back then. The World has always been hostile. The theories you present are what all do to protect a false idea. It's "Out of Sight, Out of Mind". It's not today, so it's easy to explain it away with notions that are not only inhumane, but downright evil.
Bring genocide into your backyard, then judge. Look into the faces of these dead people, or watch the slaughter take place, then give us your theory.
Also, the full message to Mankind was not finished in Word when Jesus came. The New Testament hadn't even been written yet.
If God commands a nation to war, sparing none, through a prophet it isn't sin. God alone has the authority to command such a thing. However, rest easy. God isn't dealing with a "nation" today. God is dealing with a "church", a body of called out believers, scattered among all nations. God has now called us to partake in Christ's Messianich mission by preaching the Gospel... even if it should cause us our lives and we die as Christ died for us. Our mission is to bring Christ's peace to the peoples of all nations.
If God commands a nation to war, sparing none, through a prophet it isn't sin. God alone has the authority to command such a thing. However, rest easy. God isn't dealing with a "nation" today. God is dealing with a "church", a body of called out believers, scattered among all nations. God has now called us to partake in Christ's Messianich mission by preaching the Gospel... even if it should cause us our lives and we die as Christ died for us. Our mission is to bring Christ's peace to the peoples of all nations.
Context is key.
We have Prophets today. What if "God tells them" a War is the answer?
You say, God alone has that authority, and that He (God) gave this man the "Green Light" to genocide a Nation.
First, we have no way of proving Samuel actually heard God say this. We only trust an ancient writing that declares this, just like Noah and the Ark.
Now that these ancient writings are under the spotlight of Truth, History, and our own experiences, we find many problems which present the past as possibly being misled or exaggerated.
Like I said, if the genocide was in your backyard and you beheld that absolute murder and slaughter of these helpless people, you may question whether a man heard from God or not.
You still left most of my presented problems on past post's, alone.
It's easy to say things; it's another thing to live them.
We have Prophets today. What if "God tells them" a War is the answer?
You say, God alone has that authority, and that He (God) gave this man the "Green Light" to genocide a Nation.
First, we have no way of proving Samuel actually heard God say this. We only trust an ancient writing that declares this, just like Noah and the Ark.
Now that these ancient writings are under the spotlight of Truth, History, and our own experiences, we find many problems which present the past as possibly being misled or exaggerated.
Like I said, if the genocide was in your backyard and you beheld that absolute murder and slaughter of these helpless people, you may question whether a man heard from God or not.
You still left most of my presented problems on past post's, alone.
It's easy to say things; it's another thing to live them.
Yeah, but back in those days, people knew how to tell fake prophets from real ones, so they knew whose commands they should obey. Ya see.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
We have Prophets today. What if "God tells them" a War is the answer?
That question was answered in my previous post. The nation of Israel broke the covenant and God has now offered a New Covenant that is opened to all peoples, not just a nation. Today under the New Covenant God isn’t dealing with a geopolitical “nation”, God is dealing with a called out people, a church, comprised of all nations. We are called to be a kingdom of peace wherein God alone is King. We exemplify the Messianic message to the world; our mission isn’t to advance a nation or national agenda. If a “prophet” were to rise and tell a President to “go to war” by some oracle of God we’d know he was a false prophet because that isn’t the covenantal paradigm that God is working from today.
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You say, God alone has that authority, and that He (God) gave this man the "Green Light" to genocide a Nation.
Yes, all things belong to God and God may do with them as he so chooses. Thank him that he’s chosen to operate according to the New Covenant.
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First, we have no way of proving Samuel actually heard God say this. We only trust an ancient writing that declares this, just like Noah and the Ark.
We have no way of knowing if there ever really was a Samuel. The entire Bible could be a mythical tale of morals and outdated anecdotes for all we “know”. So if it’s so important that we don’t know if Samuel actually heard God as the Word says… why believe ANY of it? Why not “live it up”?
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Now that these ancient writings are under the spotlight of Truth, History, and our own experiences, we find many problems which present the past as possibly being misled or exaggerated.
If you’re right I know that it’s impossible for one to rise from the dead… so who needs Jesus? Christianity becomes the biggest FRAUD on earth. Why are you wasting your precious time on a Christian forum? If the Bible can’t be believed that means one is a fool for believing that Jesus rose from the dead. It becomes highly dishonest and unethical to be a “Christian”. It would be more honest and ethical to be seeking the pleasures that our world has to offer and being totally open about it. It makes the man on the bar stool getting his buzz after work on a Friday night arguing that there is no proof of God far more honest and respectable than being a Pastor wherein you perpetuate mythical stories and extort money from people.
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Like I said, if the genocide was in your backyard and you beheld that absolute murder and slaughter of these helpless people, you may question whether a man heard from God or not.
I was military. I’ve seen my share of this world’s horror. I look at it like this… first God was dealing with a nation, second God originally fought there battles for them until they drifted from him and were told to fight their battles on their own, thirdly if a human leader can see a necessity for war… certainly God could.
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You still left most of my presented problems on past post's, alone.
I think you’re not READING. For example the very first question you presented in this post was previously answered by implication. Did you even read my post?
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It's easy to say things; it's another thing to live them.
I agree. Have you ever killed a man NotForSale? Do you know what it’s like? Do you know what it’s like to think, “That wasn’t too bad.”, after your first kill? This is a vile, fallen, and sinful world. God used extreme measures because sadly all too often they are necessary. Think of WWII. We dropped the bomb on Japan and killed multiplied thousands of civilians. Japan surrendered unconditionally saving multiplied thousands of American lives and perhaps even our freedom. Was it terrible? Yes. Did it feel good? No. Was it necessary? Yes. Long term more lives were saved than were lost. I know many get squeamish at the idea of God demanding entire nations be killed. However, consider the thousands of years of blood shed between the Jews and the Arabs. Hypothetically how many lives would have been saved down through the ages had Israel wiped out the Ishmaelits a couple thousand years before Christ?
Sometimes the unthinkable is the most humane thing to do when faced with no win situations on this fallen world.
That question was answered in my previous post. The nation of Israel broke the covenant and God has now offered a New Covenant that is opened to all peoples, not just a nation. Today under the New Covenant God isn’t dealing with a geopolitical “nation”, God is dealing with a called out people, a church, comprised of all nations. We are called to be a kingdom of peace wherein God alone is King. We exemplify the Messianic message to the world; our mission isn’t to advance a nation or national agenda. If a “prophet” were to rise and tell a President to “go to war” by some oracle of God we’d know he was a false prophet because that isn’t the covenantal paradigm that God is working from today.
Yes, all things belong to God and God may do with them as he so chooses. Thank him that he’s chosen to operate according to the New Covenant.
We have no way of knowing if there ever really was a Samuel. The entire Bible could be a mythical tale of morals and outdated anecdotes for all we “know”. So if it’s so important that we don’t know if Samuel actually heard God as the Word says… why believe ANY of it? Why not “live it up”?
If you’re right I know that it’s impossible for one to rise from the dead… so who needs Jesus? Christianity becomes the biggest FRAUD on earth. Why are you wasting your precious time on a Christian forum? If the Bible can’t be believed that means one is a fool for believing that Jesus rose from the dead. It becomes highly dishonest and unethical to be a “Christian”. It would be more honest and ethical to be seeking the pleasures that our world has to offer and being totally open about it. It makes the man on the bar stool getting his buzz after work on a Friday night arguing that there is no proof of God far more honest and respectable than being a Pastor wherein you perpetuate mythical stories and extort money from people.
I was military. I’ve seen my share of this world’s horror. I look at it like this… first God was dealing with a nation, second God originally fought there battles for them until they drifted from him and were told to fight their battles on their own, thirdly if a human leader can see a necessity for war… certainly God could.
I think you’re not READING. For example the very first question you presented in this post was previously answered by implication. Did you even read my post?
I agree. Have you ever killed a man NotForSale? Do you know what it’s like? Do you know what it’s like to think, “That wasn’t too bad.”, after your first kill? This is a vile, fallen, and sinful world. God used extreme measures because sadly all too often they are necessary. Think of WWII. We dropped the bomb on Japan and killed multiplied thousands of civilians. Japan surrendered unconditionally saving multiplied thousands of American lives and perhaps even our freedom. Was it terrible? Yes. Did it feel good? No. Was it necessary? Yes. Long term more lives were saved than were lost. I know many get squeamish at the idea of God demanding entire nations be killed. However, consider the thousands of years of blood shed between the Jews and the Arabs. Hypothetically how many lives would have been saved down through the ages had Israel wiped out the Ishmaelits a couple thousand years before Christ?
Sometimes the unthinkable is the most humane thing to do when faced with no win situations on this fallen world.
You still haven't answered the question about killing. What you say is, that God's chosen people can break the Commandant to not kill if the Prophet say's it's OK. You can give me all of your ideas about what Covenant they were in, and what one we are in, but the FACT is, according to the Bible the Commandment to KILL was broken.
Your cold approach to human life is completely "Religious". Your signature at the bottom of your page states, "The only thing more Worldly than Hollywood is Religion". Religion kills, binds, and has corrupted Planet Earth with fighting about who's on God's side and who isn't. And when a Faith finds that a person is leaving or searching for God elsewhere, out comes the HELL FIRE. They are backslidden. They are rebellious. They are false and evil, leaving the Faith, and so the mental torment begins. The door is shut! The person becomes the victim of a "Religious Dog Pile".
Brother, we can play this game of going back and forth on revealing our experiences, but I can tell you are young, because the older we get, the more compassionate we become. We suffer, we see death, disease, failure, and the many woes that people face. We see the fallacy of man more and more, and our hearts break. We see how we've been misled, and how others were manipulated and broken by abusive ministries. We find that the human mind is a delicate place, where mental quarrel can drive a person into deep depression and confusion, trying to make sense of a Book that is debated more than any other Book on Earth. Which Church is right? Which Church is wrong? What conviction should I follow or obey? Who’s saved? Who’s lost? Do I really know? Can I know? The unseen becomes nothing but a battle, and then we condemn a person when they ask “Why”?
I spent 6 years in the Marines, and the killing of our Band of Brothers is not only evident, we are known to take care of the War Business like nobody else. But I will say this; if we went into a city and massacred people like Amalek, our reputation as ethical soldiers would be tainted forever. We have seen where we've made some mistakes in this area and the whole World finds out. And, the men that come back from War with the scar of inhumane killing are men who deal with nightmares, depression, and the struggle to develop a healthy family. These are the facts, Chris. The cold, hard, facts.
Sending men into Amalek to slaughter every living, breathing thing in the Name of God, left these men with nightmares and dread. If it didn't, I don't want to know them. I don't want to understand them. I don't want a heart that can ignore the screams of dying children, and the pleas of begging women. I don't want this "Religion", I don't care what time frame they are from and what God they serve. I have children and grandchildren, and a wife that I love. I am bound to protect and provide for them, not kill them, and the people of Amalek were no different. They had their problems just like we do because they are human beings, and to sterotype the Nation of Amalek as a "Bunch of Heathens", well, look at America. We have more than our share of "DIRT". The Human Race is a pathetic mess as a whole. We are sick. We struggle everyday.
People need mercy, not murder. The World is full of violence, and its men with opinions such as yours that feeds the Warmonger spirit because you defend a bloodshed that most Countries on the Earth abhor. It gives people an image about God that defies the very fiber of who and what people really are. It creates Hate, not Love. Why do you think there is so much Hatred in the Middle East? Why? Because in days gone by, Israel slaughtered past Civilizations saying it was God that told them to do it.
You know, you seem to think that People have always had a Bible; at least that’s my impression, because you paint with a broad brush. The World as a whole, from beginning to end, doesn’t even know what a Bible is. Advanced printing presses didn’t even exist until the 19th Century. We must take this into account if we are ever going to understand God and His purpose for us. Learning about God in the past was not done through reading; it was accomplished by experience because there was no other way.
And, experience has shown me that killing only leads to more killing. The guy who wins leaves the defeated with a grudge. You mention Japan. Oh, we may have won, but they have not forgotten, just like those who surround Israel, with bombs ready to fire. History proves, Allies can become an Enemy overnight.
Hybrid Mode
