The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Amen. People will "Blab" out something just to get the monkey off of their back, or, those praying with the person will claim they "Heard" tongues so they can add to the tally (numbers) for bragging purposes. The whole system of receiving the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of tongues is in utter failure.

Has this been your experience? I have never been in a service where someone claimed they heard another speak in tongues. It has never been about numbers.

Originally Posted by NFS

The Spirit filled experience talked about in Acts doesn't even compare to our current practice of forcing and begging, working ourselves into an emotional frenzy under the spell of screaming and music so loud you can't hear yourself think.

I have witnessed an emotional frenzy or two. I have known very few who have begged for the baptism of the Holy Ghost. And those that have, there was always an underlying issue as to why they did not recieve anything. I have been in services where first time visitors would receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost/Spirit and speak in tongues as the congregation worshipped the Lord in song. Nobody shook them or yelled in their ears. Nobody even approached them. They surrendered themselves to Jesus and He did something for them.

Originally Posted by NFS

What ultimately happens, is a person can feel Hell awaits them if they don't speak in tongues, leading to whatever it takes to say foreign words that others will hear, creating a bunch of shouting and praise which feeds our "feeling based" Religion.

Was this your experience? Did you say whatever so people would get off your back? I have had a time or two where I was close to plummeting into a devil's Hell. I could not speak in tongues. I had enough reverence for God not to say "whatever" to get people off of my back or send them into a frenzy. The baptism of the Holy Ghost is just too precious to me.

Anyway, everything is subjective.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The demand that "speaking in tongues" is a requirement of salvation flows directly from Charles Fox Parham's attempts to ingrain his theology into the minds of his students. It never seemed to catch on with any of his students at first. Ironically, it was "some black guy" who was forced to sit on a chair in the hallway during a teaching session in the Houston area that was responsible for Parham even being remembered.

When Agnes Ozman "spoke in tongues" famously (famously now) at the New Year's Watch Night Service in 1900, another student reported to Parham (who was away at the time) that Agnes had "spoken in the Chinese language for two hours." Other students claimed that it was "just gibberish" and clearly not the Chinese language.

After much discussion and counter claims the whole affair was dropped and the school in Topeka was disbanded just 4 months after the Watch Night Service. Agnes herself renounced the experience until about 1914, when she read about Azusa Street. This was the mission started by the "some black guy" (William Seymour) and the news of the events at Azusa Street went literally around the world.

Upon reading about this, Ms. Ozman came forward and began to publize her experiences and joined the fledgling AoG. In time, she was recognized as "the first" to receive this experience.

It wasn't until G.T. Haywood had joined and really, resurrected the PAW that a theology of "evidence" was promoted widely at all. Parham had in the meantime fallen into the politics of the Utopian community Zion City in Illinois and probably also due to allegations of misbehavior, he fell out of favor and was forgotten for decades while dying in obscurity.

Given the following facts, I have a hard time demanding "speaking in tongues" as a requirement for salvation:

1. It was never a tenet of the original Apostolic Faith movement.
2. There is no standard to evaluate the authenticity of the "sign."
3. Even those who have had this experience have had difficulty ascribing it to "God."

And most importantly...

4. We have no way of authenticating that the experience witnessed today is the same as that which was reported in the Acts of the Apostles. The Acts accounts involve speaking in known languages - albeit unknown to the one who is speaking. But the languages are recognized as such by the hearers.

But the subject of the thread involves Calvary - an historic event that is widely attributed and known to have actually happened.

Good Pentecostal History here.

[Jeffrey]

What's interesting is when Jesus told them to wait for the POTF -- why didn't he give them a heads-up on tongues. Azusa was all about people reading about others speaking in tongues and seeking that experience. The early disciples never sought tongues though.

Just thinking out loud. I think Azusa was a positive thing, and a great returning of focus for the church on the charismata. But I can't help but think about that.

[Jeffrey]

Even more interesting is that Seymour and others initially believed in xenolalia. Some would go to the country they felt their language represented and were shocked that the natives didn't understand them! lol They changed their position to "unknown tongues" or glossolalia.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Berkley

Has this been your experience? I have never been in a service where someone claimed they heard another speak in tongues. It has never been about numbers.

I have witnessed an emotional frenzy or two. I have known very few who have begged for the baptism of the Holy Ghost. And those that have, there was always an underlying issue as to why they did not recieve anything. I have been in services where first time visitors would receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost/Spirit and speak in tongues as the congregation worshipped the Lord in song. Nobody shook them or yelled in their ears. Nobody even approached them. They surrendered themselves to Jesus and He did something for them.


Was this your experience? Did you say whatever so people would get off your back? I have had a time or two where I was close to plummeting into a devil's Hell. I could not speak in tongues. I had enough reverence for God not to say "whatever" to get people off of my back or send them into a frenzy. The baptism of the Holy Ghost is just too precious to me.

Anyway, everything is subjective.

All's I can say is, WOW!! Not sure what Church you go to. Emotional frenzy or two??

So, the "Underlying Issue"? What might that be? What do you tell someone who's been "Seeking" for 20 years, spending untold hours praying under the "Pressure"?

Never yelled in their ears? Uh, hmmmm.....Wow, again. This is AFF (Apostolic Friends Forum). There may be a Catholic Forum and you just missed it!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2CezWts6oU

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

All's I can say is, WOW!! Not sure what Church you go to. Emotional frenzy or two??

Apostolic...

Originally Posted by NFS

So, the "Underlying Issue"? What might that be? What do you tell someone who's been "Seeking" for 20 years, spending untold hours praying under the "Pressure"?

I don't know anyone who has been seeking for 20 years.

Originally Posted by NFS

Never yelled in their ears? Uh, hmmmm.....Wow, again. This is AFF (Apostolic Friends Forum). There may be a Catholic Forum and you just missed it!!

I'm no more Catholic than you are Baptist... wait... no... nevermind. You are baptist...

[Jeffrey]

John V. Taylor:

By prescribing the evidence of a subsequent (or in AFF view, part of conversion) and individualistic experience of Spirit baptism, Pentecostals have fallen as much as Catholics and Protestants for the temptation to systematize the movement of God's free Spirit, specifying conditions of his coming and the signs that will prove it.

(Moving the discussion from baptismal regeneration to Spirit Baptism for a moment)

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

PO, you're still narrowly defining the term. I wasn't referring to a "second blessing" nor is the term exclusive to describing "second blessing" though that is what many early Pentecostals believed. Crisis experience explains the "Jesus Bomb" called Spirit Baptism.

"Crisis experience" and "Jesus Bomb"...... Yes, "Jesus Bomb" sounds even more stupid. But, "Crisis experience" is a very close second.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

"Crisis experience" and "Jesus Bomb"...... Yes, "Jesus Bomb" sounds even more stupid. But, "Crisis experience" is a very close second.

I feel like I'm younger than you, so I don't know how to account for your incredulity.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Berkley

Apostolic...
I don't know anyone who has been seeking for 20 years. ...

I've been introduced to people like that or had them pointed out to me though I haven't ever had close enough dealings with anyone to ewven pretend to know the details of their lives.

I remember one particular man who had been "seeking" for something like 7 or 8 years when he and his family moved from out of state and started attending services with us. He received his experience after just a few weeks. This of course boosted our pride and caused several people to exclaim that we had some sort of "power" that other churches lacked.

But that thinking really gnawed at me. The man was seeking salvation (in my mind at the time "tongues" was the evidence of salvation). Why would God withhold His salvation until the family came out to our great fellowship? Did everyone in the world need to pass through our doors just to "get saved?"