The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Repentance is where we actively do something. And Spirit infilling with tongues is where we also do something. But we speak as the Spirit gives utterance. It is cooperation in all cases! The Spirit does not simply come on us without any mental assent required for anything.

But you are still missing the real principle involved, I think. None of the categories you noted are relevant. Salvation by works is the issue. What falls in that category and what does not?

What did Paul mean by salvation by works? He meant there are things people assume we can do in our human energy to award ourselves righteousness without the need of the cross. THAT is the issue we must deal with and the category in which we must determine the works involved are. Anything else misses the entire point against our core issue of what exactly is salvation by works. And baptism, Spirit infilling with speaking in tongues (WE speak while the SPIRIT GIVES utterance) and repentance all have US doing something, but in no way are they done in human energy to get righteousness without the cross.

How do we know someone is speaking in Tongues? Who is to judge that what is said is truly of the Spirit?

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Mike, I'd really appreciate it if you'd state your case without the final bolded statements. That seems uncalled for and it's strictly your opinion. Your vast amount of knowledge doesn't give you the right to make such final judgements and proclamations. Of course, you have the right to believe that you're correct!

That being said, I'm surprised that someone of your learning would use such a pointless argument that you used when you said that Acts is speaking to sinners and Romans is speaking to the church. That is a very tired, worthless, and inaccurate argument and I'm baffled that anyone would use it. It's right up there with the, "But the devil believes" argument......in my opinion.

What's the difference? You are telling him he's wrong with a whole lot more words.


Mike, in my opinion, you are very learned but very wrong.

That was his opinion, so just because you added the words makes it okay for you?

LOL - - you are funny!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Inapplicable. When debates occur like this, both sides simply do not change. But there is a benefit. Unbiased readers (there are always SOME, if few) will get a good taste of both sides to make their decision.

Yes, but when you say water baptism is not part of salvation as well as Spirit baptism with speaking in tongues, then you must, by the same token, claim repentance is not required. You are using the principle that WE DO NOTHING and BAPTISM is doing something. So is repentance!

The one step argument that claims the cross alone saves, and since baptism is a work then
baptism is not salvational is contradicted by its insistence on repentance.

The "One Step" position has always been that "the blood is applied at repentance." That is the historical reality.

You appear to be adding some form of hyper-Calvinism whereby predestination completely overwhelms the choices that we make. That is NOT "One Stepper" theology.

Jesus said, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

Peter said, "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Acts 2:21

Paul said, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13

Jesus said again, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20

The list is almost endless. The "One Stepper" theology has always called for repentance. And, your reasoning is flawed if you say, "Well, if you have to repent then you have to... [fill in the blank]..."

All the sinner is ever called to do is to repent. All of the stuff that has been added on to that call has either been to support the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church or more recently, a result of John Wesley's problems in grappling with the notion of sinless perfection.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I looked up your "crisis experience" terminology to get the gist of what the term is implying. We don't believe nor teach the "second blessing". My husband was under that teaching growing up in the COG as his grandfather was his pastor.

PO, you're still narrowly defining the term. I wasn't referring to a "second blessing" nor is the term exclusive to describing "second blessing" though that is what many early Pentecostals believed. Crisis experience explains the "Jesus Bomb" called Spirit Baptism.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

THe whole point of Acts 19 and 8 clearly show a certain expectancy that was expected when it came to the Spirit. Pauls comment clearly shows that reception of the Spirit is NOT AUTOMATICALY on belief.

For example?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Pauls whole point anyway is about works is...

1) works that are outside of CHrist that are good that you can claim you deserve eternal life by will not succeed in doing so.
2) he was against one must have precovenant works of goodness stored up to be considered for entrance into covenant and considered judged right to enter before God.
3) belief that works by some form of special righeousing act, by or like circumcision when Pauls' point is that nothing in circumcision itself has a righteousing aspect.

and others...

Way to re-write Paul's words. Abraham was justified before circumcision. It was a gift of God to which he responded at a heart level with faith. End of story. Salvation hasn't changed. He uses Abraham as a pre-law figure to prove this.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen. And that is precisely why statements are severely wrong in saying that demands for baptism propose a salvation by works doctrine. Neither water baptism, Spirit infilling with tongues NOR repentance are efforts we perform that sidestep the cross. They are integrally linked to the cross, and without the cross are unavailable.

They aren't wrong, they are right.

Circumcision was just as much a "work" as "baptism" is. And then those of you that claim one must speak in tongues to be a child of God baffle me all the more "We know you love God, and you were SOOOOO close. Sister, can you get back on the organ, Suzy here was SOOOOOOO close. I think we heard a tongue." Yeah... that's not the gospel.

Repentance is not an initiation of salvation, it's a response to faith. God loved us while we were sinners, not after we repented. Faith in God comes first. One cannot even repent until he believes in the God he is repenting to. And repentance is not a "I'm going to have good works and be a better person" it's "I believe you are Lord and God, and therefore I don't have to be."

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

totaly agree as "all" is a work of the mind.

Sorry, faith goes further than a cognitive recognition. Paul addresses that too. We should have a thread to go verse-by-verse through Romans. Wouldn't that be a delight.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I believe forgiveness and remission are the same thing. I do feel we get forgiveness at repentance. The angels rejoice over one soul that repents. But nonetheless I feel baptism is required since it is the fruits meet for repentance, as John the Baptist said. In other words, if it is a repentance in which God sees the obedience to do anything He wills to do, like baptism, then God forgives. But if the alleged repentance is seen by God to sidestep an obedient act of baptism, then God does not forgive.

It's like the fact that God granted Abraham righteousness for his FAITH THAT WORKS. If God knew Abraham would not obey to be circumcised, then the faith Abraham had was not the faith God took to grant Abe righteous. Same with baptism. Otherwise, how can one get Spirit baptism in Acts 10 without forgiveness first?

Quite complicated isn't it

Your speculation about "if God knew" is just that: purely speculative. What a STREEEEEEETCH.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I disagree. Dang it, I promised myself I wouldn't post until next week.

Repentance is being misunderstood and misapplied here. Typically, we see it as an action, something that's accomplished.

But repentance as it appears in this discussion is very different and in fact, works in perfect harmony with Romans 10:9-12.

In the Acts command to repent, we are being told to turn, to think differently, to reconsider; it is a condition of complete brokenness and a complete change of heart. We are not being told to slobber and cry at the altar. We're not being told to "work" on something.

It is, in fact, an exact description of what we are told will save us in Romans 10. See it described beautifully here (bolded emphasis mine):




Romans 10:1 Dear brothers and sisters, the longing of my heart and my prayer to God is that the Jewish people might be saved.


Rom 10:2 I know what enthusiasm they have for God, but it is misdirected zeal.


Rom 10:3 For they don't understand God's way of making people right with himself. Instead, they are clinging to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law. They won't go along with God's way.


Rom 10:4 For Christ has accomplished the whole purpose of the law. All who believe in him are made right with God.


Rom 10:5 For Moses wrote that the law's way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands.


Rom 10:6 But the way of getting right with God through faith says, "You don't need to go to heaven" (to find Christ and bring him down to help you).


Rom 10:7 And it says, "You don't need to go to the place of the dead" (to bring Christ back to life again).


Rom 10:8 Salvation that comes from trusting Christ--which is the message we preach--is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say, "The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart."


Rom 10:9 For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


Rom 10:10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.


Rom 10:11 As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who believes in him will not be disappointed.



This is a perfect description of repentance...a change of heart, a complete brokenness, turn, redirection, and a changed way of thinking.

BINGO!

Misunderstanding of repentance underscores "works" based salvation.