born of water

[Originalist]

delete

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by obriencp

If you know better, then yes, I'd say get re-baptized for your conscience sake... and many do. What matters is the heart and intent of the one getting baptized.

Men are "involved" yes, but the issue is whether or not our salvation hinges on what a 3rd party says. Does our salvation depend on them or our hearts and God? If someone in an impoverished country is water baptized by a Baptist Minister because they happened to be the only missionary to reach them, are they still lost in their sins?

You keep dodging a direct answer.

Q: If someone has truly repented, has been filled with the Holy Ghost, but in your opinion was water baptized improperly, are they saved? Or are they lost?



(no need for jokes or any LOLs on this)

At least someone on here can consider all of this with a rationale mind. Good post.

[jfrog]

Originalist, how can you hold tongue speaking Catholics as not truly baptized when you argue that receiving the Holy Spirit with tongues validates other imperfect baptisms?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Originalist, how can you hold tongue speaking Catholics as not truly baptized when you argue that receiving the Holy Spirit with tongues validates other imperfect baptisms?

Read my comments. I am highly skeptical of Catholics receiving the Holy Ghost. Receiving the Holy Ghost goes hand in hand with understanding the doctrine of justification by faith alone, something that the Catholic church denies. I also hear of Mormons supposedly speaking in tongues by some euphoric experience and then remaining in the LDS church. Both cults see this "experience" their members are receiving as something that enhances their faith in their respective systems. Whereas the true Holy Ghost baptism is given to those who have abandoned faith in systems and have realized their spiritually destitute state.

[shazeep]

a big amen, and i have discovered that many Catholics--the religion notwithstanding--seem to fit that description.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

when one continually creates straw men to debate rather than answering the points that have actually been presented, it is a sign that they know they are losing an argument. And Sean, you are the master of the straw man argument.

Straw man no. 1......



Please note how you ignored what I clearly stated.....



The so called "Charismatic Movement" in the Catholic Church is not a move of the Holy Spirit. They do not base their relationship with God on faith and repentance. They are a works based salvation cult. Furthermore, they do not immerse. They are using these manifestations of "tongues" and other "gifts" as proof texts that God endorses the "mother church". To compare what is happening there to what might happen in an Assembly of God church demonstrates that you are either ignorant or insincere. At an AoG church people seeking the Holy Ghost have responded to the preaching of the cross and the Lordship of Christ. They are turning from dead works to serve the Living God.



Originalist, they are your Spirit filled brethren. I know several Spirit filled Catholics that refuse to get baptized. Who are you, that thinks folks are saved by the Spirit only, to judge your brethren???



Straw man no. 2......



Why lie to yourself, much less those on AFF? You know that I view baptism as being linked to repentance and is done "in order that your sins might be forgiven". My contention is that it is 99% a matter between God and the one being baptized and can still be effective even if the baptizer makes an error. You make it 99% between the one being baptized and the one baptizing thus cutting God out of the picture.

Not at all, I just do it with the authority He gave us, using His name. The lord simply backs up His name.

You further separate the name of Jesus from Jesus himself and base all forgiveness based on a priest's invocation instead of on the sinner's faith and repentance. He further degrades the regenerating power of the Holy Ghost (which brings with him the new birth) as nothing more than an illuminating experience meant to guide only. Pure heresy. He never actually commented on the verses I quoted.

It takes a combination of baptizer and baptizee to accomplish remission in the name of Jesus. Both must have faith, both must obey the standard practice of the 1st century church shown us in Acts 2:38.
It would be in your best interest to simply agree with this passage as it is written in its' face value.....Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This passage is your thorn in the side bro. "FOR" means.."in order to obtain"....You seem to think the Holy Ghost remits sins, which is not what the passage says at all.

Is this what you think it says???...Acts 2:38King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ. And ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost for the remission of sins.....LOL



Straw man no. 3.....



Sean, once again, is either willfully lying or is ignorant as to what the AoG teaches. He knows full well I could never hold license with the AoG believing what I do. He also continues to lie about my beliefs as well concerning baptism. He knows I affirm it is indeed for(in order that) the remission of sins. He also claims that baptism is only effective when the name of Jesus is invoked by the baptizer, in spite of the fact that those receiving baptism invoked the name, and in spite of the fact that God validated the imperfect baptisms of many by bestowing the like precious gift on them.


You may not hold a license with them, but you are definitely not like us with this belief of yours. You are in opposition with the essentiality of water baptism in Jesus' name, which we insist on as the water birth part of the plan of salvation. Your tenure would be short lived as an Apostolic in my neck of the woods(California).

As for Urshan, I have read his quotes right here on AFF. He was right in line with many other early Apostolics, like G.T. Haywood, who considered Spirit filled Trinitarians to be brothers in Christ.

I taught Bible studies along side his nephew for 25 years. His nephew talks him up and is a hard core Urshanite. His nephew is just like me, along with the congregation that he attends. You may be trying to quote these guys out of context or something.
Either way, this truth, as we know it, was gradually opening up to folks as time has gone by.....Is 28: 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

The Lord had needed centuries to get Acts 2:38 to be obeyed on a large scale, even since the first Bibles were printed for public use in 1611. The Apostolics have STILL not shaken some of their old "dark age" doctrines(like tithing), even today.

As for David Wilkerson, he was declared and made righteous when the righteous One baptized him with his own Spirit.\

Who knows if the man drew swords with the oneness movement as many Spirit filled(not Spirit led) do today.
I cannot speak for the man, but I would rather be me, than him!!!

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Read my comments. I am highly skeptical of Catholics receiving the Holy Ghost.

Here you are judging your Spirit filled brethren. Is there a certain amount of knowledge a person must understand, along with Spirit infilling, to OFFICIALLY save them???

Receiving the Holy Ghost goes hand in hand with understanding the doctrine of justification by faith alone, something that the Catholic church denies.

So that is a "different" kind of infilling? Are they Gods" people after receiving the Spirit? Are Baptists Gods' people when they receive the Spirit? Does their religious preference even matter when they receive Gods' Spirit? Hasn't God sealed them by His Spirit? Are you judging them?

I also hear of Mormons supposedly speaking in tongues by some euphoric experience and then remaining in the LDS church. Both cults see this "experience" their members are receiving as something that enhances their faith in their respective systems. Whereas the true Holy Ghost baptism is given to those who have abandoned faith in systems and have realized their spiritually destitute state.

Are you now the "authority" on the true Holy Ghost bro.???

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Read my comments. I am highly skeptical of Catholics receiving the Holy Ghost. Receiving the Holy Ghost goes hand in hand with understanding the doctrine of justification by faith alone, something that the Catholic church denies. I also hear of Mormons supposedly speaking in tongues by some euphoric experience and then remaining in the LDS church. Both cults see this "experience" their members are receiving as something that enhances their faith in their respective systems. Whereas the true Holy Ghost baptism is given to those who have abandoned faith in systems and have realized their spiritually destitute state.

Right ....when the doctrine doesn't fit, claim the experiences of others aren't real but that your identical experience is real.

If you can believe their tongues experience is fake what is to stop yours from being fake.

[Originalist]

Sean continues his misrepresentations....

This passage is your thorn in the side bro. "FOR" means.."in order to obtain"....You seem to think the Holy Ghost remits sins, which is not what the passage says at all.

He ignored completely what I had previously.....

He knows I affirm it is indeed for(in order that) the remission of sins.

When one keeps lying about you after you've made yourself clear on an issue, they are demonstrating which father they are really of.

And I never said that Holy Ghost baptism "remits sins". More outright lies. I have affirmed that sins are remitted (denoting a record being expunged, cleared) by God at baptism, not by baptism.

However, Spirit baptism does deal with our sin nature by imparting unto us supernaturally a clean heart and the nature of Christ. In Romans 8:2 Paul declares that it is the life of the Spirit that frees us from the law of sin and death, and that those who are indwelt by the Spirit are "not in the flesh" or under the dominion of the flesh. Sean maintains that those with the Spirit with an imperfect immersion (done based on faith and true repentance and not as a ritual) are indeed still in the flesh and were not liberated from the law of sin and death when the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus came to live in them.

As for Catholics, I must refer you to the remarks i made to ifrog in a previous post.

[Sean]

John 16:13...Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come....


This is the 1st reason why the Lord gives various folks, religious or not, the Holy Ghost.