4given@Repentance If You're Still Goin 2 Hell?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Yes, it was always curious to me that heaven would rejoice over a person still bound for hell.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

How do you know there is a difference?

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Simple.

Do a study on repentance, just from the Scripture alone.

You will find that it is far more than just simply confessing your sin.

Someone who has never been born again and doesn't even believe in God can confess their sins ubtil their tonsils fall out and nothing will happen.

John wrote that verse to saved people.

"If WE confess our sin..."

John wrote to "brethren" and "my little children."

In fact, repentace is something God grants.

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Repentance and forgiveness are two very different words.

Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Repentance is a reversal, a change of mind, a turning away from sin and unto the Lord.

That is a far more profound and all-encompassing process, and one that God must empower, than simply a born again child of God confessing a sin and receiving forgiveness.

I agree with Coon here, except when he says "simply" in the last paragraph. It's still a pretty big deal, IMHO.

"Repentance" is the theme in the letters to the Churches of Asia in Revelation 2 and Revelation 3. "Repent" has always been a cry directed toward the people of God as much as toward anyone else.

1 Kings 8:47; 2 Chronicles 7:14; Job 4:26; Ezekiel 14:6; Matthew 3:2 and Matthew 4:7.

That being said, Coon is right. Repentance is much more than confessing your sin. It involves forsaking and turning from sin, no matter whether it is a "saint" or "sinner" doing the repenting.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Jesus did say, "water and Spirit" when he told Nicodemus that he had to be "born again." Nicodemus questioned this when he asked how he could enter his mother's womb and be "born again."

Nicodemus had already been born one time. Jesus said he had to be born another time. There are Two Births under discussion here. The first birth and the second birth. The water and the Spirit. There is nothing in John 3 that would lead us to think Jesus was discussing water baptism. Your "Water & Spirit" doctrine conflates the Two Births under discussion in John 3. It throws out the first birth that Nicodemus had raised and conflates the Two Births together, thus rendering the term "born again" meaningless. This was a teaching that G.T. Haywood said God had "revealed" to him over a period of time beginning in about 1915 - 1916.

Well said my friend, well said! [ I used to be confused also as some others are. ]
Raven

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by Sam

Repentance is not enough according to some teaching.

Repentance brings forgiveness but the person is still filthy in his sins until they are washed away or remitted by water baptism.

If "born of water" means water baptism like the Roman Catholic Church taught for years and some OP's teach now, then repentance is not enough because the person who has repented is not a child of God until after water and Spirit baptism.

That just happens to be the theology of some.

I personally believe a person is justified/saved/born again and on the way to Heaven the instant he/she asks Jesus Christ into his/her life. I also believe that failure to be baptized in water and failure to speak with tongues does not negate that salvation. But, that's just the opinion of a greasy grace, soft on the message, easy believism, one-stepper Bapticostal Charismatic.

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Good post, CS.

Repentance is far more encompassing and more involved than forgiveness and I think that Acts 19:4 and Mark 1:15 explain that well. We must have a change of mind and believe on Christ Jesus and the Gospel.

"Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people (certain DISCIPLES), that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." (Acts 19:4). They were disciples of the doctrine of a soon coming Messiah. This was the crux of the message that Paul illuminated to them. It was about making a choice.

"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. (Mark 1:15)

And finally, Mark 16:16 says that we will be saved if we believe and are baptized and if we don't start with belief, we will be damned.

PO, this word repentance also comes with the connotation of "to reconsider". So what is it the apostles were exhorting their listeners (or letter recipients) to do?

Acts 19:4-Reconsider Jesus as the Messiah and repentance towards Him instead of John's baptism of repentance. One Greater than John has arrived.

Mark 16:15-Jesus is saying that the kingdom (invisible Kingdom of God) is NOW, in other words. In order to enter this kingdom, you must reconsider any ideas you may have about it and instead believe that I am the Messiah, the One Who was to come. I am the fulfilment of all prophecy. I am the good news for mankind. I am the I AM. Believe this. Reconsider what you have previously believed that I am Who I say I am.

BTW, there is a stream of belief that holds that John 3 is a synthetic parallelism. There is no denying that it is a valid viewpoint, since it is the ONLY NT scripture that mentions in (partial) context birth of "water' and "spirit".

[Sam]

Originally Posted by james34

The water in John 3 denotes man born of a woman,the spirit is the Holy Ghost new birth.

Here is how The Living Bible reads (including a marginal reading at verse 5) for John 3:1-21 note verse 5

1,2 After dark one night a Jewish religious leader named Nicodemus, a member of the sect of the Pharisees, came for an interview with Jesus."Sir," he said, "we all know that God has sent you to teach us. Your miracles are proof enough of this."
3 Jesus replied, "With all the earnestness I posses, I tell you this: Unless you are born again, you can never get into the Kingdom of God."
4 "Born again!" exclaimed Nicodemus. "What do you mean? How can an old man go back into his mother's womb and be born again?'
5 Jesus replied, "What I am telling you so earnestly is this: Physical birth is not enough. You must be born spiritually. 6 Men can only reproduce human life, but the Holy Spirit gives new life from heaven; 7 so don't be surprised at my statement that you must be born again! 8 Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it will go next, so it is with the Spirit. We do not know on whom he will next bestow this life from heaven."
9 "What do you mean?" Nicodemus asked.
10,11 Jesus replied, "You, a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don't understand these things? I am telling you what I know and have seen --and yet you won't believe me. 12 But if you don't even believe me when I tell you about such things as these that happen here among men, how can you possibly believe if I tell you what is going on in heaven? 13 For only I, the Messiah, have come to earth and will return to heaven again.14 And as Moses in the wilderness lifted up the bronze image of a serpent on a pole, even so I must be lifted up upon a pole. 15 so that anyone who believes in me will have eternal life. 16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 God did not send his son into the world to condemn it, but to save it.
18 "There is no eternal doom awaiting those who trust him to save them. But those who don't trust him have already been tried and condemned for not believing in the only Son of God. 19 Their sentence is based on this fact: that the Light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the darkness more than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 They hated the Light because they wanted to sin in the darkness. They stayed away from that Light for fear their sins would be exposed and they would be punished. 21 But those doing right come gladly to the Light to let everyone see that they are doing what God wants them to.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Sam

Here is how The Living Bible reads (including a marginal reading at verse 5) for John 3:1-21 note verse 5

1,2 After dark one night a Jewish religious leader named Nicodemus, a member of the sect of the Pharisees, came for an interview with Jesus."Sir," he said, "we all know that God has sent you to teach us. Your miracles are proof enough of this."
3 Jesus replied, "With all the earnestness I posses, I tell you this: Unless you are born again, you can never get into the Kingdom of God."
4 "Born again!" exclaimed Nicodemus. "What do you mean? How can an old man go back into his mother's womb and be born again?'
5 Jesus replied, "What I am telling you so earnestly is this: Physical birth is not enough. You must be born spiritually. 6 Men can only reproduce human life, but the Holy Spirit gives new life from heaven; 7 so don't be surprised at my statement that you must be born again! 8 Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it will go next, so it is with the Spirit. We do not know on whom he will next bestow this life from heaven."
9 "What do you mean?" Nicodemus asked.
10,11 Jesus replied, "You, a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don't understand these things? I am telling you what I know and have seen --and yet you won't believe me. 12 But if you don't even believe me when I tell you about such things as these that happen here among men, how can you possibly believe if I tell you what is going on in heaven? 13 For only I, the Messiah, have come to earth and will return to heaven again.14 And as Moses in the wilderness lifted up the bronze image of a serpent on a pole, even so I must be lifted up upon a pole. 15 so that anyone who believes in me will have eternal life. 16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 God did not send his son into the world to condemn it, but to save it.
18 "There is no eternal doom awaiting those who trust him to save them. But those who don't trust him have already been tried and condemned for not believing in the only Son of God. 19 Their sentence is based on this fact: that the Light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the darkness more than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 They hated the Light because they wanted to sin in the darkness. They stayed away from that Light for fear their sins would be exposed and they would be punished. 21 But those doing right come gladly to the Light to let everyone see that they are doing what God wants them to.

Yes, thanks James34 and Sam. The rendering of this passage in King James English is clumsy by modern standards. Even the updates made in 1769 that form the basic KJV that we all read today are often confusing.

There are Two Births under discussion in John 3. A "first" or natural birth and a Spiritual or "Second" birth. So, when Jesus tells Nicodemus that he must experience BOTH births, He says, "You must be born of the water and the Spirit." (emphasis mine - because I think being born again is important).

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Sabby

PO, this word repentance also comes with the connotation of "to reconsider". So what is it the apostles were exhorting their listeners (or letter recipients) to do?

Acts 19:4-Reconsider Jesus as the Messiah and repentance towards Him instead of John's baptism of repentance. One Greater than John has arrived.

Mark 16:15-Jesus is saying that the kingdom (invisible Kingdom of God) is NOW, in other words. In order to enter this kingdom, you must reconsider any ideas you may have about it and instead believe that I am the Messiah, the One Who was to come. I am the fulfilment of all prophecy. I am the good news for mankind. I am the I AM. Believe this. Reconsider what you have previously believed that I am Who I say I am.

BTW, there is a stream of belief that holds that John 3 is a synthetic parallelism. There is no denying that it is a valid viewpoint, since it is the ONLY NT scripture that mentions in (partial) context birth of "water' and "spirit".

Exactly, "to reconsider" is a big deal!

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Sabby

...BTW, there is a stream of belief that holds that John 3 is a synthetic parallelism. There is no denying that it is a valid viewpoint, since it is the ONLY NT scripture that mentions in (partial) context birth of "water' and "spirit".

I have heard it taught that "water" in 1 John 5:6 refers to Jesus' birth and "blood" refers to His death.

6 This is he that came by water and blood (birth and death), even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

1 John was written to show that Jesus was both human and Deity. John shows that He is the Word/Logos in the very first few verses. John emphasizes the real flesh or humanness of Jesus and emphasizes His Deity. The passage shows that He came by water (was born as a human in real human flesh), and that He came by blood (died as a human in real flesh), and that the Spirit witnessed also to His humanity and deity by raising Him from the dead. A parallel passage would be Romans 1:3-4 where it says "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:"

He came by water i.e. He was born as a human
but not by water only but by water and blood because just His birth could not save --He had to die.
Then, the Spirit bore witness to His successful birth and death by raising Him from the dead.