Israel is an abomination

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Not completely "equated," obviously, but it certainly can be compared. All I'm really trying to point out is the inconsistency of the dispensationalist camp who on the one hand don't flinch at God using pagan nations to punish Israel in the Old Testament, but recoil at the thought of God doing the same thing today. This is what my comparison was all about. We see a bunch of self-professed Israelis (but not really) at a rave party, half-naked, glorying in sensuality, all reminiscent of the golden-calf worshipers in Exodus. Then, from out of nowhere, an enemy people sweep in and reap havoc, and take away captives. It is a great opportunity to school dispensationalists on the inconsistencies of their views. .

You can't "school" someone who dropped out years ago and refuses to sign back up.

[shag]

Paul teaches that we gentiles are grafted into the already existing tree, Israel.


How do dispensationlist interpret what Paul is saying regarding that engrafting?


Also, in Rom 11’s “all Israel will be saved”:
Do they (disp) see that as a yet future seperate unfulfilled thing applying just to the “unbelieving jews”, while it’s actually speaking of ?

[shag]

Eph. 2:19
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,


Is this a safe and reasonable way to interpret that?:
Consequently, you (GENTILES) are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people(Israel of the old covenant) and also members of his household(old covenant Israel)
?





(Based off the preceding passage:
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.)


It looks to me like the latter of Eph 2 is the nail in the coffin, of disp theology.
How is it not?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

1 John 2:22-23 KJV
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. [23] Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

If a religion denies that Jesus is the Christ, it is the religion of antichrist. ANYBODY who denies Jesus is the Christ is antichrist.

By the way, all Muslims confess that Jesus is in fact the Christ. All Jews deny that Jesus is the Christ. Something to think about, eh?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

"Chosen people" means chosen by God because of descent from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob:

Deuteronomy 10:14-15 KJV
Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the Lord's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. [15] Only the Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.

If a Chosenite rebels, and rejects Messiah, they are cut off and de-chosened:

Acts 3:22-23 KJV
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. [23] And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Romans 2:25 KJV
For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Romans 2:28-29 KJV
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Meanwhile, the Israelis never were "chosen" because they are by and large NOT the descendants of Jacob.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Israel has always been the people of God. All those Israelites NOT in Christ are legally classed as heathen or "gentiles". Israel entered the new covenant beginning in the first century. Those who stayed behind were left behind and are no longer citizens.

Deuteronomy 28:45-46 KJV
Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee: [46] And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.

While China, for example, has its own problems, and while God is Judge of all nations, a specific people group are under a specific cause-effect relationship with God that reflects their conformity to, or deviation from, the Divine Law.

Matthew 25:31-46 KJV
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: [32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. [34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [35] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: [36] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. [37] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? [39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? [40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. [41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: [42] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: [43] I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. [44] Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? [45] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. [46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Ultimately, all nations will be judged based on their response to Christ as demonstrated by their treatment of Christ's brethren, ie Israel.

Rejection of Jesus Christ and His Gospel will destroy the nations or peoples who do the rejecting.

Benjamin Netanyahu needs to obey Acts 2:38

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

How many American churches, Pentecostal, charismatic, Baptist, trinity, oneness, whatever, are all in unison this week about supporting "Israel" because "they are God's special beloved people"?

LOTS.

Why?

Because they are 501c3 corporations created by the state in order to advance "public policy". (Look it up in a law dictionary, it's true.) Therefore they are literally government institutions created for the purpose of propagandizing the citizenry to support whatever the current government policies are. Sometimes pastors get a bit of a conscience and complain about policy (the gay marriage issue etc) but they almost N E V E R actually try to buck the system. Why? Because they are part of it. In bed with the beast as it were.

And it is all made possible via one simple easily fact-checked falsehood: that the people who today call themselves "Jews" are in fact the Israelites that we read about in the Bible.

They are not.

We were warned about satanic imposters pretending to be God's "chosen people" by Jesus Himself TWICE in prophecy:

Revelation 2:8-9 KJV
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; [9] I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 KJV
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Even if the people claiming to be Jews were in fact Judeans, it wouldn't matter because Judaism is Pharisaism - LITERALLY:

"In King Agrippa (41-44) the Pharisees had a supporter and friend, and with the destruction of the Temple the Sadducees disappeared altogether, leaving the regulation of all Jewish affairs in the hands of the Pharisees.

Henceforth Jewish life was regulated by the teachings of the Pharisees; the whole history of Judaism was reconstructed from the Pharisaic point of view, and a new aspect was given to the Sanhedrin of the past. A new chain of tradition supplanted the older, priestly tradition (Abot i. 1). Pharisaism shaped the character of Judaism and the life and thought of the Jew for all the future. "

From the Jewish Encyclopedia - https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/a...2087-pharisees

Jesus said this about Pharisees and their relationship to God:

Matthew 23:15 KJV
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Modern "churches" support the antichrist, because that is public policy and they exist to promote obedience to public policy.

Pretty sobering thoughts.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Now, preach THAT from an American pulpit and suddenly you're on a government watch list and your church is likely to be shut down post haste.

Yep, and the ones who would advocate us on the watch list with be Pentecostals.

[loran adkins]

Originally Posted by shag

Paul teaches that we gentiles are grafted into the already existing tree, Israel.


How do dispensationlist interpret what Paul is saying regarding that engrafting?


Also, in Rom 11’s “all Israel will be saved”:
Do they (disp) see that as a yet future seperate unfulfilled thing applying just to the “unbelieving jews”, while it’s actually speaking of ?

It seems that we fail to remember that the church were all of Jewish descent. Then the Gentiles were grafted into the church. The branches that were cut off were those that did not accept the Gospel and were later destroyed in 70ad. There is no longer a people except we that have accepted the Gospel that are God chosen people. The only way to become Gods chosen people is to accept Christ and the Gospel.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by loran adkins

It seems that we fail to remember that the church were all of Jewish descent. Then the Gentiles were grafted into the church. The branches that were cut off were those that did not accept the Gospel and were later destroyed in 70ad. There is no longer a people except we that have accepted the Gospel that are God chosen people. The only way to become Gods chosen people is to accept Christ and the Gospel.