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Old 04-30-2010, 08:08 AM
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

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Originally Posted by TheLegalist View Post
pretty close in many areas...

The problem is Luther was all over the map in his life. So whic Luthers belief are you talking about. LOL! Lutherans have a very wide set of beliefs. Some are antinomians and some are charged as legalists by the other side. LOL! Oh wait I thought htat only happened in the UPC.
I was amazed at the list you provided of all the Lutheran branches! WOW! It is quite similar to the UPC in some ways, isn't it.
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Old 04-30-2010, 08:47 AM
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I was amazed at the list you provided of all the Lutheran branches! WOW! It is quite similar to the UPC in some ways, isn't it.

Ok, this is my last post!!!!!

That's it, I just wanted to say that.
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:47 PM
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Lutherans are like Calvinists. They believe in predestination and election the way Calvinists do, in my assessment. Correct me if I am wrong.
As Jeffery's anointed "sage" - (in this thread only!) I will agree with your assessment of Lutherans here, but only in the most general of terms.

Lutherans don't typically go with the "strong" Calvinism such as the "Five Points" of Calvin's "Evangelicalism." They do take their cues from Augustine's predestination which was also the source for the development of Calvinism.

It's probably fair from our Arminian/Wesleyan/Holiness tradition to lump them all together - but we should remember that what we have left at the end of the day is still rather "lumpy." Properly they are two different sorts of critters.
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:36 PM
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

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Originally Posted by TheLegalist View Post
I) God - Lutherans believe in the Triune God and reject other interpretations regarding the nature of God.

uh they can't really explain it either so this is amusing.

II) Original Sin - Lutherans believe that the nature of man is sinful, described as being without fear of God, without trust of God and with concupiscence. The only 'cure' for sin is to be reborn through Baptism and the Holy Spirit.

The first part is contradictive to 18. It's a compromise.

III) The Son of God - Lutherans believe in the incarnation, that is, the union of the fully human with the fully divine in the person of Jesus. Jesus Christ alone brings about the reconciliation of humanity with God.

about time something good is said.

IV) Justification By Faith - Man cannot be justified before God through our own abilities; we are wholly reliant on Jesus Christ for reconciliation with God. (This is often described as the one article by which the "Lutheran church stands or falls".)

own abilities must be defined. does it mean outside of God's request or simply our own initiative. If it is a reference to works of our own initiative I agree but I doubt it.





V) The Office of Preaching Lutherans believe that to see to it that the gospel of Jesus Christ is proclaimed throughout the world, Christ has established his office of the holy ministry.
VI) Of The New Obedience - Lutherans believe that good deeds of Christians are the fruits of faith and salvation, not a price paid for them.

While we are at it let's just throw out Christ's Word that receiving the kingdom of God is like purchasing a field or a great pearl. Also let's ingore basic understanding of contract law and how it works.

VII) Of The Church Lutherans believe that there is one holy Christian Church, and it is found wherever the gospel is preached in its truth and purity and the sacraments are administered according to the gospel.
VIII) What The Church Is Despite what hypocrisy may exist in the church (and among men), the Word and the Sacraments are always valid because they are instituted by Christ, no matter what the sins may be of the man who administers them.
IX) Of Baptism Lutherans believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God. Children are baptized as an offering to them of God's grace.

1/2 right

X) Of the Lord's Supper Lutherans believe that Christ's body and blood is truly present in with and under the bread and wine of the sacrament, and reject those that teach otherwise.
XI) Of Confession Lutherans believe that private absolution should remain in the church, though a believer does not need to enumerate all of his sins as it is impossible for a man to enumerate all of the sins for which he should be forgiven.
XII) Of Repentance Repentance comes in two parts: in contrition for sins committed according to the Law and through faith offered through the Gospel. A believer can never be free from sin, nor live outside of the grace of God.
XIII) Of the Use of the Sacraments The Sacraments (Baptism and the Eucharist) are physical manifestations of God's Word and his commitment to us. The sacraments are never just physical elements, but have God's word and promises bound to them.
XIV) Of Ecclesiastical Order Lutherans only allow those who are "rightly called" to administer the Sacraments.
XV) Of Ecclesiastical Usages Lutherans believe that church holidays, calendars and festivals are useful for religious observance, but that observance and ritual is not necessary for salvation. Human traditions (such as observances, fasts, distinctions in eating meats) that are taught as a way to "merit" grace work in opposition to the Gospel.
XVI) Of Civil Affairs Secular governments and vocations are considered to be part of God's natural orders; Christians are free to serve in government, the military and engage in the business and vocations of the world. Laws are to be followed unless they are commandments to sin.
XVII) Of Christ's Return to Judgment Lutherans believe that Christ will return to judge the world and all men; the 'godly' will be given everlasting joy, the 'ungodly' will be condemned. This article rejects notions of the earthly kingdom of the godly, or that Christ's judgment will not be final.
XVIII) Of Free Will Lutherans believe that we have free will in the realm of "civil righteousness" (or "things subject to reason"), but that we do not have free will in "spiritual righteousness". In other words, we are free to choose and act in every regard except for the choice of salvation. Faith is not the work of men, but of the Holy Spirit.

This is totaly ignorant and stupid while being contradictive.

XIX) Of the Cause of Sin God does not cause people to sin — sin is instead the work of the 'ungodly and the devil'. (i.e. our selfish concerns of this world)
XX) Of Good Works The Lutheran notion of justification by faith does not somehow condemn good works; our faith causes us to good works as a sign of our justification (or salvation), not a requirement for salvation.

This clearly ignores the whole of scripture and that works are the very essence of judgment of what "faithfulness" is. This also fails as it makes salvation ONLY a single realized point in time vs a whole view of a promise to be realized by judgment in the end. Typical failure of understanding Abraham and WAY over reaching what Gen 15:6 is about. Promises and covenants mean rights to obtain. Abraham had conditions, Jesus gave conditions and faithfulness is always the judge of obtaining the promise BY THE CONDITIONS of the contract!

XXI) Of the Worship of the Saints Lutherans keep the saints, not as saviors or intercessors to God, but rather as examples and inspirations to our own faith and life.
Are you citing part of the Confession or where are you citing from?

Contractual law. I think our hugest blunder is to see God through our constructed grids.

TL are you a Triumphalist? Do you believe we can attain perfection? How "faithful" must I be to deserve to be saved?

What I have now in salvation, is it not also futuristic? Is my name not written in the Book of Life now? Do you not have comfort in and security in the promise?

Is grace "you do this and I'll do this" or is grace "I've done this so you can do this?"
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:40 PM
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

Yes. More smilies are needed. Running the aisles smilies, casting out devils smilies and anti-liturgy smilies.
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:00 PM
TheLegalist TheLegalist is offline
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
Are you citing part of the Confession or where are you citing from?

Yes... Wiki!

Quote:
Contractual law. I think our hugest blunder is to see God through our constructed grids.
No, his ways have been made known. It's not m contruction but his.

Quote:
TL are you a Triumphalist? Do you believe we can attain perfection? How "faithful" must I be to deserve to be saved?
Perfection? I have explained this many times. Blamelessness is about getting up by faith and walking in his light when we sin. Zach and Elizabeth where blameless not sinless. BIG difference. THe law provided for sin by atonement and they fulfilled the requirement with a heart of faith and true repentance. Just as JEsus taught!

Mat 5:23 So then, if you bring your gift to the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother and then come and present your gift.


Quote:
What I have now in salvation, is it not also futuristic? Is my name not written in the Book of Life now? Do you not have comfort in and security in the promise?
could be but it can also be taken out. Yes, God is true to his promise in contract. You must be faithful to your end of the contract and that is to follow him and do the will of the Father as HE did. Then you will be called friend as Abraham was called friend. Salvation is conditional.

Exo 32:32 But now, if you will forgive their sin--but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written."
Exo 32:33 But the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.

Quote:
Is grace "you do this and I'll do this" or is grace "I've done this so you can do this?"

I have done this (atonement) and offer you this IF... He offers freely but salvation has conditions. It is both a present realization(promise) with the hope of future realization by judgment. (consummation) Just as Abraham experienced. God will give you help but you choose to be a servant to whom you please.

God offered a promise to do(grace) to a humble man but it was not realized unless he walked by faith.

Gen 18:18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Gen 18:19 For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring to Abraham what he has promised him."

Gen 26:4 I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,
Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Abraham was justified by doing what God commanded him to do and God's promise would be realized because of his faithfulness.
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:06 PM
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

Jeffrey,

Are you a Calvinist of any kind? Sorry if I missed your clarification of that question. If I misrepresented the Lutherans and Calvinists, then I did not do it intentionally. My conclusions are the impression I got after surveying the beliefs I have surveyed. Not saying I am not wrong about my conclusions. I know no one intentionally makes doctrines to excuse sin, but I feel this is the spirit undergirding such concepts, personally.

I see no room for Gal 5:16 in their thoughts.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
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Last edited by mfblume; 04-30-2010 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:13 PM
TheLegalist TheLegalist is offline
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Doing the commandments of God give you RIGHT by contract to the tree of life and that you can enter your eternal rest with the Lord. Thus he judges you faithful to obtain!
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:15 PM
Jeffrey Jeffrey is offline
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

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Originally Posted by TheLegalist View Post
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Doing the commandments of God give you RIGHT by contract to the tree of life and that you can enter your eternal rest with the Lord. Thus he judges you faithful to obtain!
I follow you to a certain extent, then I read something like this. That's not Grace, TL.

Grace isn't an earned wage. The only wage we've earned is death. He doesn't love us out of obligation, or because he "owes" us.

Last edited by Jeffrey; 04-30-2010 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:21 PM
Jeffrey Jeffrey is offline
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Re: The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

I think what we lose in this conversation is the separation from good works and salvation. I will agree that "good works" does not equal "sacraments" or things we do when we are saved. The question is "when" are we saved. It's impossible to separate obedience from the two, and that naturally follows the believer. But Paul is emphatic about not being saved by doing, but by the free grace of God. Our response in faith is what regenerates us, justifies us and sanctifies us (the process has begun). None of this says "go be a sinner" or that "obedience is not important." It's "what saves us."

So to direct the conversation back -- it is clearly about when are we saved.

That said, the discussion today opened up several side topics that I feel are important. But I also wanted to clarify what I thought the post was originally about as well, to keep that alive in the thread.
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