Circumcision of the heart

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

You are creating a new 3 step teaching. We disagree with Trinitarians who claim we are first born of the Spirit and then later baptized in the Spirit. We point out that Acts simply says folks had not yet received the Spirit, not an act of the Spirit. You are saying that the Spirit cleanses at baptism but does not stay?

No I am not saying that at all. How in the world can you take me saying the Spirit does the work of washing sins when we're baptized as saying it enters our lives and exits again? The Spirit does everything in our lives that is supernatural. Asking me if I think the Spirit enters and leaves if I believe the Spirit remits sins at baptism is like asking a person if the Spirit enters and exits when someone is healed.

I am not saying anything different about salvation.

And then has to be asked to return at Spirit baptism? How does one remain quickened by the Spirit if he did not stay after they were cleansed by him at baptism?

He does not indwell us when he washes sins away in baptism. Why on earth do you think washing sins by the Spirit means otherwise?

He is the quickening agent. Quickening is not just something he does, it is something he is.

One is born of the water (really the Spirit) and then born of the Spirit?

I cannot make sense out of your questions, because you mistook what I said and thought I meant the Spirit indwells temporarily when baptized and exits again. I never implied anything about that whatsoever.

How do YOU think the Spirit washes sins at baptism? Do you not believe before one is filled with the Spirit that one's sins can be remitted, or something?

Do you think every act of the Spirit upon a life means he indwells and then exits? Why do we have to consider Him indwelling in order for Him to do anything in our lives?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No I am not saying that at all. How in the world can you take me saying the Spirit does the work of washing sins when we're baptized as saying it enters our lives and exits again? The Spirit does everything in our lives that is supernatural. Asking me if I think the Spirit enters and leaves if I believe the Spirit remits sins at baptism is like asking a person if the Spirit enters and exits when someone is healed.

I am not saying anything different about salvation.


He does not indwell us when he washes sins away in baptism. Why on earth do you think washing sins by the Spirit means otherwise?


I cannot make sense out of your questions, because you mistook what I said and thought I meant the Spirit indwells temporarily when baptized and exits again. I never implied anything about that whatsoever.

How do YOU think the Spirit washes sins at baptism? Do you not believe before one is filled with the Spirit that one's sins can be remitted, or something?

Do you think every act of the Spirit upon a life means he indwells and then exits? Why do we have to consider Him indwelling in order for Him to do anything in our lives?

I feel where many apostolics err is that they think these literal, tangible things called sins are washed away at baptism. It simply is not so. Nor is any blood applied. We are forgiven of our sins by God for Christ's sake in baptism because we have trusted in the price he paid for our sins and have submitted to his lordship. That's it. Nothing literal in a sense of cleansing. Just forgiveness. Then, with us having submitted to the gospel, God is free to literally deal with our sin nature and give a new nature by Spirit baptism.
My point in your last post is that you think the Spirit cleanses from sin in baptism, but does not fill us then. Why would he do that and not just move on in immediately?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I feel where many apostolics err is that they think these literal, tangible things called sins are washed away at baptism. It simply is not so. Nor is any blood applied. We are forgiven of our sins by God for Christ's sake in baptism because we have trusted in the price he paid for our sins and have submitted to his lordship. That's it. Nothing literal in a sense of cleansing. Just forgiveness. Then, with us having submitted to the gospel, God is free to literally deal with our sin nature and give a new nature by Spirit baptism.

I agree with that.

Just using biblical terms.

My point in your last post is that you think the Spirit cleanses from sin in baptism, but does not fill us then. Why would he do that and not just move on in immediately?

Anything God does is by His Spirit, and this is why I asked you if you think healing means His Spirit enters and stays as you seem to imply with washing of sins. Healing is done by His Spirit. Anything from God, O, is done by His Spirit. Dealings with man are always said to be the work of the Holy Ghost. So, again, why do you think dealing with sins implies Spirit indwelling?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Originalist

My point in your last post is that you think the Spirit cleanses from sin in baptism, but does not fill us then. Why would he do that and not just move on in immediately?

Isn't that the ideal?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I don't think so. You may be right, though. What passage would you be referring to?

We are BORN AGAIN by water and Spirit, if that's what you mean.

I do know that Romans 6 is about water baptism, and says after baptism we're to present ourselves to God as those alive from the dead. He did not mention Spirit baptism in there anywhere. Your thoughts?

My thoughts? I think I have something to study on this week now, lol.

If we are dead in sins, and then born of the Spirit, we are no longer dead but alive. One who was dead, and then alive, is said to have been "resurrected" are they not? Then Spirit baptism is a sort of resurrection... although I think the being made alive cannot be separated from water baptism either. Again it seems as if we today create separation where the apostles did not. We split salvation into parts and debate "what comes first and what comes next" when the apostles seem to have viewed it as a composite whole.

[shazeep]

amen

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree with that.

Just using biblical terms.



Anything God does is by His Spirit, and this is why I asked you if you think healing means His Spirit enters and stays as you seem to imply with washing of sins. Healing is done by His Spirit. Anything from God, O, is done by His Spirit. Dealings with man are always said to be the work of the Holy Ghost. So, again, why do you think dealing with sins implies Spirit indwelling?

God forgiving someone would simply be an act of his will, not his Spirit. As I see it, that is all that God does for us at baptism, he forgives us for Christ's sake (which is not a small thing). Where God acts by his Spirit on behalf of the sinner is at the birth of the Spirit.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

My thoughts? I think I have something to study on this week now, lol.

If we are dead in sins, and then born of the Spirit, we are no longer dead but alive. One who was dead, and then alive, is said to have been "resurrected" are they not? Then Spirit baptism is a sort of resurrection... although I think the being made alive cannot be separated from water baptism either. Again it seems as if we today create separation where the apostles did not. We split salvation into parts and debate "what comes first and what comes next" when the apostles seem to have viewed it as a composite whole.

I've heard the idea of splitting things when we shouldn't, but then I studied Romans 6.

Rom 6:3-13 KJV Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

Baptism is death as well as burial. This is water baptism.
[indent]...that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [/quote]

The whole purpose of getting into His death is to walk in newness of life. AS in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. So, we GET INTO CHRIST by baptism. More specifically, we get into His death. If there was no newness of life, then baptism into Christ would be pointless.

(5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Here it is again. Planted int the likeness of His death is water baptism. And it seems to be saying that an automatic resurrection occurs once we've been baptized into his death. In other words, when we get into His death then we're also in his resurrection.

Like a sheet of paper put into a book, once the sheet is inside wherever the book goes the paper goes. Baptism puts us into Christ so wherever He is we are. Nothing was said here about Spirit baptism.

(6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Now we learn that the newness of life is a life that is not serving sin.

(7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Death frees us from sin. Since we got baptized into HIS DEATH, then we were freed from sin to enjoy this newness of life.

Now, I am strictly going by what Paul said in Romans 6, not adding anything to it, because it's the most complete layout of the issue in the Word. Yes, we can add what else thebible says to this to make it more complete. But notice Paul has not said anything here about Spirit baptism.

(8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: (9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. (10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Again Paul makes the case that if we've died with Him then it is automatic that we live with Him. You get the death and then you ALREADY THEREFORE HAVE THE resurrection.

I know people equate repentance with death and baptism with burial and Holy Ghost infilling as resurrection. But Paul is not doing that at all here. He said baptism is death and burial both!

(11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So, without having mentioned Spirit baptism, he said once we're baptized we need to consider our selves alive from the dead with Him as well.

(12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

A benefit of being alive with Him is that sin does not have to rule in us any more like it did before.

(13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

So again, without mentioning Spirit baptism, Paul said we're alive from the dead and need to present ourselves to God with that concept about ourselves.

So, how is that splitting things up incorrectly if Paul did it, himself?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

God forgiving someone would simply be an act of his will, not his Spirit.

Here is where communication broke down with us. We essentially agree. But we are using different terms. I call ANYTHING God does being caused by His Spirit, because GOD IS A SPIRIT. When He forgives HIS SPIRIT forgives.

As I see it, that is all that God does for us at baptism, he forgives us for Christ's sake (which is not a small thing). Where God acts by his Spirit on behalf of the sinner is at the birth of the Spirit.

I disagree in use of terms with you. Anything done by God is His Spirit doing it. That's why His anointing on Old Testament prophets was said to be by the Holy Ghost.

2Pe 1:21 KJV For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The whole purpose of getting into His death is to walk in newness of life. AS in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. So, we GET INTO CHRIST by baptism. More specifically, we get into His death. If there was no newness of life, then baptism into Christ would be pointless.

(5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Here it is again. Planted int the likeness of His death is water baptism. And it seems to be saying that an automatic resurrection occurs once we've been baptized into his death. In other words, when we get into His death then we're also in his resurrection.

I see what you mean about it almost being "automatic" which leads me to a point that will NOT be well recieved. While i believe there is a link between water baptism and repentance, I don't believe water baptism has to do with "salvation." Hear me out, if true repentance and faith are present and that person has the Holy Spirit in them, then the spirit is already working in them when they go through the conversion process participating in water baptism. The power we have to live a life from sin comes only from the power of the Holy Ghost working in us. If we don't automatically recieve the spirit during water baptism, then is it possible the new convert already received His Spirit prior to water baptism? These verses tend to make more sense if the Spirit is already present and working in those being buried in water baptism.