born of water - Page 5

Aquila · #41 12-08-2014, 02:24 PM

My point is that the phrase "born again" (Hebrew "born anew") along with the reference to water would immediately speak of mikveh (precursor to water baptism) in the mind of Nicodemus, a teacher of the Law.

John 3:1-5King James Version (KJV)
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus answers Christ's statement that a man must be born again with a question to clarify, "Can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus then answers rightly to Nicodemus Jewish mind, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Nicodemus would have satisfactorily received Christ's clarification. Water and Spirit. Nicodemus would have also understood it's co-relation to the phrase "born again" when connected to mikveh (baptism), seeing that the mikveh was considered to be the "womb of the world" wherein men are "born anew" (all concepts predating the time of Jesus).

Not only that, but why would Jesus need to even speak of water in reference to amniotic fluid in natural birth? What man ISN'T "born of water" if this is so? So it causes a redundancy in Christ's clarification.

thephnxman · #42 12-08-2014, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

Why shouldn't born be translated as begotten in 1 John 5:1?

Thank you, Beloved. I neglected the scripture that was originally in question!
I believe it should be included as "begotten".
It corresponds with the Lord's words to Peter:"Blessed art thou, Simon, Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you
but my Father which is in heaven."

I John 5:1__"Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God (begotten of God): "and everyone that loves him that begat
(that loves the Father that begat the son) loves him also that is begotten of Him." ( loves the son that was begotten of the Father.)

jfrog · #43 12-08-2014, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

My point is that the phrase "born again" (Hebrew "born anew") along with the reference to water would immediately speak of mikveh (precursor to water baptism) in the mind of Nicodemus, a teacher of the Law.

John 3:1-5King James Version (KJV)
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus answers Christ's statement that a man must be born again with a question to clarify, "Can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus then answers rightly to Nicodemus Jewish mind, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Nicodemus would have satisfactorily received Christ's clarification. Water and Spirit. Nicodemus would have also understood it's co-relation to the phrase "born again" when connected to mikveh (baptism), seeing that the mikveh was considered to be the "womb of the world" wherein men are "born anew" (all concepts predating the time of Jesus).

Not only that, but why would Jesus need to even speak of water in reference to amniotic fluid in natural birth? What man ISN'T "born of water" if this is so? So it causes a redundancy in Christ's clarification.

The only problem i have is that Christ mentions one 2nd birth but the water is baptism and spirit is Holy Ghost crowd forces 2 births into that one 2nd birth.

Disciple4life · #44 12-08-2014, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

Why shouldn't born be translated as begotten in 1 John 5:1?

Personally I like this version of the verse.

1 John 5:1Amplified Bible (AMP)

5 Everyone who believes (adheres to, trusts, and relies on the fact) that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah) is a born-again child of God; and everyone who loves the Father also loves the one born of Him (His offspring).

Disciple4life · #45 12-08-2014, 05:29 PM

Great articles Aquila!!!

Disciple4life · #46 12-08-2014, 05:31 PM

I always wondered something. If you put new wine in new wine skins then the person is new before the new spirit goes into the new person. Right?

thephnxman · #47 12-08-2014, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

The only problem i have is that Christ mentions one 2nd birth but the water is baptism and spirit is Holy Ghost crowd forces 2 births into that one 2nd birth.

Beloved, you can't have one without the other.

Water baptism correlates to the burial: "...buried with him by baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father..." .
Paul writes that our natural bodies must die and be sown (planted in the waters), that we may be raised a spiritual body.

It is therefore, not 2 births, but one.

jfrog · #48 12-08-2014, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Beloved, you can't have one without the other.

Water baptism correlates to the burial: "...buried with him by baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father..." .
Paul writes that our natural bodies must die and be sown (planted in the waters), that we may be raised a spiritual body.

It is therefore, not 2 births, but one.

The birth of the spirit is one birth and the birth of the water is another. Else Jesus couldn't have spoken about those born of the spirit as if they were born again

jfrog · #49 12-08-2014, 06:04 PM

In John 3:7 and 3:8 born again is directly correlated with being born of the spirit.

thephnxman · #50 12-08-2014, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

In John 3:7 and 3:8 born again is directly correlated with being born of the spirit.

John 3:3__a man must be born (begotten) from above (the Father).
John 3:4__Nicodemus did not understand: he thought Jesus meant birthed (not begotten): "Can a man be born (birthed)
when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born (birthed)?
This revelation must can only come from God.

In John 3:8, the Lord was referring to the birth "...of water and of the Spirit." The natural man cannot understand the things of God.