Original Sin/Ancestral Sin - Page 6

Baron1710 · #51 06-11-2008, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

This is an opinion only an opinion no I do not believe they are in the Bride but at judgment since they committed NO sins they are found innocent and given eternal life. Again only an opinion.

Wouldn't this be similar to the friend of the bridegroom idea?

And isn’t appealing to our sense of justice similar to what Universalist do?

Just thinking through the implications of the position.

I understand that we are dealing with opinions I won’t lock you in on these.

Steve Epley · #52 06-11-2008, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Wouldn't this be similar to the friend of the bridegroom idea?

And isn’t appealing to our sense of justice similar to what Universalist do?

Just thinking through the implications of the position.

I understand that we are dealing with opinions I won’t lock you in on these.

The difference is the ABILITY to choose in their infancy they made NO choice because they did NOT have the ability. In both friends of the bridegroom & universalism they had choice but did not act upon it.

Baron1710 · #53 06-11-2008, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

The difference is the ABILITY to choose in their infancy they made NO choice because they did NOT have the ability. In both friends of the bridegroom & universalism they had choice but did not act upon it.

But aren't choices based on informed decisions? If I am not informed about an idea how can I accept or reject it? The Ability to choose means there are choices in front of me? If I am never presented with the opportunity to accept or reject what Christ did for me then what?

bishoph · #54 06-11-2008, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bishoph

While it may be difficult with our human compassion to fully understand, I personally believe the Bible does indicate this.

If we understand and believe in types and shadows, then the flood and subsequent death of all who were not in the ark could give us our first clue. If the ark was a type of the church/bride, (as I have heard it preached and taught for years) and all who did/do not get on/in the ark (the church/bride) was/will be lost, then we see that God did not spare the children/infants. If God could make all of the animals gather to the ark and be saved from destruction, don't you think he could have caused all of the innocent babies to come to the ark? One cannot believe the typology of the ark being the church/bride and being lost if one does not enter in, and then throw out the typology of everyone who does not enter in including innocent children being lost.

Secondly we find the same typology used often for Sodom & Gamorrah. If you won't leave Sodom & Gamorrah (the world/sin) you will be burned in judgment. All who did not flee were judged including innocent children. Again typology does not allow us to "type" the judgment of God on those we feel comfortable in condemning because they were old enough to have made a choice, and yet excusing those that were too young to choose when both were destroyed.

In both of these instances the responsibility of the parents to provide covering and present right standing with God was paramount. I think that this is an area that we often forget......we as parents have a weighty responsibility for the upbringing of our children in the Lord. (When that child can make his/her own choice then we can only pray that we have instilled in them the right principles of the Word and that they will follow them.)

Ultimately the fate of those we feel are innocent (babies, mentally challenged etc) is in the hands of a righteous God.

What say ye all? How do you overlook these scriptural implications?

Baron1710 · #55 06-11-2008, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bishoph

While it may be difficult with our human compassion to fully understand, I personally believe the Bible does indicate this.

If we understand and believe in types and shadows, then the flood and subsequent death of all who were not in the ark could give us our first clue. If the ark was a type of the church/bride, (as I have heard it preached and taught for years) and all who did/do not get on/in the ark (the church/bride) was/will be lost, then we see that God did not spare the children/infants. If God could make all of the animals gather to the ark and be saved from destruction, don't you think he could have caused all of the innocent babies to come to the ark? One cannot believe the typology of the ark being the church/bride and being lost if one does not enter in, and then throw out the typology of everyone who does not enter in including innocent children being lost.

Secondly we find the same typology used often for Sodom & Gamorrah. If you won't leave Sodom & Gamorrah (the world/sin) you will be burned in judgment. All who did not flee were judged including innocent children. Again typology does not allow us to "type" the judgment of God on those we feel comfortable in condemning because they were old enough to have made a choice, and yet excusing those that were too young to choose when both were destroyed.

In both of these instances the responsibility of the parents to provide covering and present right standing with God was paramount. I think that this is an area that we often forget......we as parents have a weighty responsibility for the upbringing of our children in the Lord. (When that child can make his/her own choice then we can only pray that we have instilled in them the right principles of the Word and that they will follow them.)

Ultimately the fate of those we feel are innocent (babies, mentally challenged etc) is in the hands of a righteous God.

I think the problem is carrying your type too far. It has already been stated on this thread physical death is not equal to spiritual death. We may not be able to understand why God would allow death to come prematurely to anyone but in the greater scheme of eternity it is really of very small consequence.

bishoph · #56 06-11-2008, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

I think the problem is carrying your type too far. It has already been stated on this thread physical death is not equal to spiritual death. We may not be able to understand why God would allow death to come prematurely to anyone but in the greater scheme of eternity it is really of very small consequence.

So then is the ark not a type of the church/bride? And are S&G not a type of the world? Are the judgments of each not a type of being eternally lost?

If they are, how do you stop the typology there and not complete it?

Baron1710 · #57 06-11-2008, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bishoph

So then is the ark not a type of the church/bride? And are S&G not a type of the world? Are the judgments of each not a type of being eternally lost?

If they are, how do you stop the typology there and not complete it?

I think the idea of types is over used in my opinion. If the Scripture doesn't call it a type I shy away from it. Using an OT event as an example doesn't make it a type. Even where something is a type, you can't carry out every detail.

bishoph · #58 06-11-2008, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

I think the idea of types is over used in my opinion. If the Scripture doesn't call it a type I shy away from it. Using an OT event as an example doesn't make it a type. Even where something is a type, you can't carry out every detail.

This is a common response when the "type" doesn't fit our theology/viewpoint. If we were to use your concept of only using types where it is explicitly noted we would have very few types/shadows. However the Word does tell us that the law was a schoolmaster leading us to Christ, which would indicate to me that there are many types and shadows in the OT that we should study.

Baron1710 · #59 06-11-2008, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bishoph

This is a common response when the "type" doesn't fit our theology/viewpoint. If we were to use your concept of only using types where it is explicitly noted we would have very few types/shadows. However the Word does tell us that the law was a schoolmaster leading us to Christ, which would indicate to me that there are many types and shadows in the OT that we should study.

It doesn't indicate that to me. The schoolmaster has already brought us to Christ so to go back and try to find the form from the shadow seems backwards to me.

bishoph · #60 06-11-2008, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

It doesn't indicate that to me. The schoolmaster has already brought us to Christ so to go back and try to find the form from the shadow seems backwards to me.

So........ are you one who believes that since Christ has appeared and the NT has been written that we no longer need the OT?