Romans 10:9

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

How long will this intellectual dishonesty persist? I am yet to meet a poster on this forum that believes baptism is optional ...

We have debated it's significance in the life of the believer ...

at it pertains to causing salvation or done because of initial salvation ...

whether it washes away sin or is part of a confession of faith ... symbolizing and identifying w/ an inward work ...

but to quote scriptures to prove that believers get dunked is at best needless ... at worst ... insulting.

I'll overlook your accusing me of lying...(or is there a difference in being dishonest and lying?)...as just more hyperbole and hydrophobia on your part.

So would it be logical to say: since you state that up to this point there is no one "on this forum that believes baptism is optional" and you are on AFF, that you do not believe that water baptism is optional? And if an antonym of "optional" is "compulsory", then you see water baptism as being essential?

All you have to do Dan, is to say the water baptism is a part of the recipe and I'd be happy......................

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

How long will this intellectual dishonesty persist? I am yet to meet a poster on this forum that believes baptism is optional ...

We have debated it's significance in the life of the believer ...

at it pertains to causing salvation or done because of initial salvation ...

whether it washes away sin or is part of a confession of faith ... symbolizing and identifying w/ an inward work ...

but to quote scriptures to prove that believers get dunked is at best needless ... at worst ... insulting.

And I have yet to see you be intellectually honest and provide an answer to the question regarding the purpose or effect of baptism.

Your rhetoric is disgusting Dan. You may be a wallflower in person and the epitome of humility when face to face but on this forum you are none of these things. You call folks intellectual liars and use tactics intended to belittle and, to use your word, marginalize anyone who is traditional.

IF, and I say IF, you were right in your doctrine I would discount it and never come to it because you are grossly disingenuous in your representation of it.

If you just want to stir up strife then your methods are perfect. If you want to enlighten you are way off base.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Adino

Anyone, when the serpent was placed on the pole in the wilderness.... did the children of Israel need to be baptized and speak in tongues in order to be healed?

The answer to this is pertinent to John 3:14-18 and to the point of this thread.

For your convenience:

Numbers 21:8-9

And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

John 3:14-18

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I'd really like to hear someone from the water/spirit persuasion exegete these passages. In light of the fact that John 3 specifically speaks of being born again, the author's comments after John 3:1-8 are relevant to the discussion as well.

Explain the correlation the author makes between the faith alone which brought healing in the wilderness and faith in Christ which brings eternal life.

Thanks.

[Adino]

I really did mean it when I said:

I'd really like to hear someone from the water/spirit persuasion exegete these passages (Numbers 21:8-9 and John 3:14-18). In light of the fact that John 3 specifically speaks of being born again, the author's comments after John 3:1-8 are relevant to the discussion as well.

Explain the correlation the author makes between the faith alone which brought healing in the wilderness and faith in Christ which brings eternal life.

Thanks.

Anyone, when the serpent was placed on the pole in the wilderness.... did the children of Israel need to be baptized and speak in tongues in order to be healed?

The answer to this is pertinent to John 3:14-18 and to the point of this thread.

For your convenience:

Numbers 21:8-9

And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

John 3:14-18

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by Adino

I really did mean it when I said:

I'd really like to hear someone from the water/spirit persuasion exegete these passages (Numbers 21:8-9 and John 3:14-18). In light of the fact that John 3 specifically speaks of being born again, the author's comments after John 3:1-8 are relevant to the discussion as well.

Explain the correlation the author makes between the faith alone which brought healing in the wilderness and faith in Christ which brings eternal life.

Thanks.

Joh 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
Joh 3:23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
Joh 3:24 For John was not yet cast into prison.
Joh 3:25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
Joh 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
Joh 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Joh 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

Can you explain away the fact that Jesus talks of being born of the water and the Spirit and then His disciples begin baptizing folks in water?

[Adino]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Can you explain away the fact that Jesus talks of being born of the water and the Spirit and then His disciples begin baptizing folks in water?

I have done this multiple times on this forum, but for your convenience I will be brief here. It is a strong probability that word "water" in John 3 carries the same metaphorical meaning it carries in John 4 and John 7. In 4 and 7 it is a metaphor for the Spirit. Christ, in John 3, uses the term to place extreme emphasis on spiritual rebirth which is the focus of the remaining chapter.

Concerning the baptisms: Christ himself did not baptize, but his disciples. In baptism men were declaring their allegiance to Christ. They were declaring that they had become his disciples. When Christ saw that word had got out that he was gathering more followers than John..... he left the area. If baptism was so salvific, interesting that Christ stopped saving people just because it upstaged John.

John 4:1-3

When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Can you explain away the fact that Jesus talks of being born of the water and the Spirit and then His disciples begin baptizing folks in water?

I'm going to add one more thing to this:

John 4:1

When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John

Notice that Christ only baptized those who had become his disciples. He made disciples and baptized those disciples.

Christ only baptized Christians!

This is precisely what Christ taught to do in Matthew 28:19

Go to the people of all nations and make them my disciples. Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (CEV)

We are commanded to baptize Christians! Only those who are FIRST Christians are to be baptized!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Adino

I really did mean it when I said:

I'd really like to hear someone from the water/spirit persuasion exegete these passages (Numbers 21:8-9 and John 3:14-18). In light of the fact that John 3 specifically speaks of being born again, the author's comments after John 3:1-8 are relevant to the discussion as well.

Explain the correlation the author makes between the faith alone which brought healing in the wilderness and faith in Christ which brings eternal life.

Thanks.

The author does not speak of faith alone...the narration or Jesus uses this analogy to show what needed to happen to Jesus. Those same people that had faith to be healed failed to enter the promised land because of a lack of faith.....

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The author does not speak of faith alone...the narration or Jesus uses this analogy to show what needed to happen to Jesus. Those same people that had faith to be healed failed to enter the promised land because of a lack of faith.....

So the analogy stops at the lifting up and does not include the believing unto salvation? Isn't the following true?

Joh 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That [as with the lifted serpent] whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life..... 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life......20:30-31 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The author does not speak of faith alone...the narration or Jesus uses this analogy to show what needed to happen to Jesus. Those same people that had faith to be healed failed to enter the promised land because of a lack of faith.....

What is your comment on this part Adino?