A thought on tithing

[KeptByTheWord]

Bro. Epley,

Tithing was done away with on the cross. The veil in the temple was rent, there was no longer any need for the priesthood, as Christ had become our eternal High Priest. There would be no more need for sacrifices, and taking care of the Levitical priesthood.

All believers now are kings, and priests. 1 Peter 2:5, I Peter 2:9, Rev. 1:6

We are all part of the priesthood now, not just a few of us. Not just the "ministry" or the pastors/preachers.

So, because the need for a priesthood changed at Calvary, so did tithing change. Tithing was meant to support the priesthood. Now we are all priests.

However, we see a mindset in the early church of giving. Yes, tithing was no longer necessary, but giving of course was their first priority. They gave until it hurt them. Many, in the beginning, sold all they had and gave it to the church. Giving was not a problem for them at all. They were not taught to only give 10% and be done. Paul taught them to give as the Lord had prospered them.

Read 1 Cor. 16:1-2
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

This would have been a perfect opportunity for Paul to teach tithing, as he was instructing the saints on giving. But he never, not once, in all his writings mentions tithing as the standard for the church. Yet, giving as the Lord has prospered you... that is the standard set by Paul, and one that the church should now live by.

Bro. Epley, I agree with you, people who don't give anything at all are generally the ones who expect the most out of the pastor of a church. They have never learned it is better to give than to receive.

You look at the welfare state that we have in this country today, where people expect the government to take care of them, but could care less about trying to return anything back from what they've received. A giving mentality is sadly lacking in many hearts.

As believers, we should not be told how much to give, or what to give, but we should understand that it is better to give than to receive. When our hearts are truly thankful, and appreciative to the Lord for His many blessings, our hands will open up, and our hearts will give joyfully. 10% won't be enough. You will want to give more.

But the important thing is to remember that in giving, we are to take care of those who are less fortunate than ourselves.

James 1:27 says it so well...
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this: To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

True religion is taking care of those who are less fortunate than ourselves, and keeping ourselves unspotted from the world. If we would undertake those two directives in our lives.... giving would not ever be a problem. Helping a brother in need would not be an issue.

But supporting a wealthy minister who takes in much more than he needs from his church, taking expensive vacations, living in a mansion, driving an fancy vehicle... while many of his congregants can't even afford to pay a light bill... that is not pure religion.

And that is what so many.... NOT ALL.... but so many pastors have done.... they have allowed the money coming in to go into their pocketbooks, instead of helping those in need.

Bro. Epley, I truly believe you are not one of the above pastors I just mentioned. I believe every word you said, that you are there to help the saints in your congregation, and you are pouring yourself out to them.

Yet, I have one issue with your comments... You are doing the work the Lord called all of us do though... not just a pastor.

As saints, we are to take care of one another... it would be great if you could begin to teach your church that you are not the only one who can do these things... but all of us are kings and priests unto the Lord, (Rev. 1:7) and all of us need to take care of one another.

Maybe you could teach on giving instead of tithing, and see what happens.... you are already leading by example... perhaps a different mindest is all your people need to really believe that they can do it themselves... that they can be available ... and in fact need to be... to help their brother or sister in need....

Maybe, just maybe.... you wouldn't be the only one having to do all these things, but the sweet people in your congregation could also begin to learn the joys of giving, without expecting to receive anything in return.

Yes, it is much better to give than to receive... and I am thankful that the heart of giving that the Lord has shown me to be so necessary is what pure religion, undefiled before God is really all about.

[deacon blues]

Who are these wealthy preachers I keep hearing about? Let's see, until three months ago my wife was driving a 1999 GMC Yukon, paid for, but high mileage and getting to the place where maintenance was getting expensive. We traded it in for 2010 Honda Civic. I drive a 2001 Nissan Altima with 200K+ miles. We live in a church parsonage. We have a son in the Air Force, a middle school daughter, an elementary aged son. We take a couple of vacations a year, usually to see relatives, once in a while maybe to Florida or tourist attraction. Always done on the cheap. I haven't bought a new suit in about 5 years. I've got a little retirement IRA going that isn't doing so hot right now b/c of economy. My wife works.

I know there are some high roller preachers out there, but for every one that exists there are 50 that live more like we do. And some pastors that look like they are wealthy early on in ministry sacrificed and did without and lived in the church and didn't have a lot and now after 30 or 40 years they are being blessed for their faithfulness and service to people. Sometimes preachers are wise with their money and they've made smart investments and have saved wisely. Stop judging preachers and what they have and believe that God sees those who are embezzling and abusing the church funds and those that are legit.

[KeptByTheWord]

Bro. Deacon Blues....

Me thinks you protest too much... I'll include you in my list of pastors I know who probably sacrifice everything they have in order to further the work of the Lord. I really see your heart in your posts, that you truly care, and love the work of the Lord, and it is a ministry of love for you. And I believe that you are giving as unto the Lord, and not because you have to.

But you are refusing to see the other side of the coin that is being discussed here. Just because YOU don't do these things, doesn't mean it isn't being done. Be honest with yourself.... how many preachers/pastors do you know that live way above the means of the people in their church? There is no problem in scripture with a minister receiving honor where honor is due, and being helped by the people of the church, however Paul makes it very clear that the ministry is there to support the needs of the church, and the people, and if money begins to come in that goes beyond supporting those needs, that money needs to go outside the church walls to help the widows, the fatherless, the orphans, the poor.... those who have nothing.

Can you say that of your church? What is your church doing to support those with the "extra" that comes in after the bills are paid?

This is the question we all need to ask even of ourselves...what are we ourselves doing with the extra that God has blessed us? Have we helped someone today with that money, or have we spent that money on something new for ourselves?

I am not afraid to look at my own life seriously, and question ... what am I doing with the extra, with what God has blessed me with? Have I helped anyone in need today? Have I done anything that costs me something... to help someone in need?

I won't brag on the things I have done, but it is a question I ask myself each day, and our family gives to those around us, to families who don't know us anonymously, to the Salvation Army, and to those in our lives who minister to us... we give to our parents who are elderly and in need of extra $$ because they are now feeble and unable to work.... I view this as truly the giving spirit that the Lord has asked of us.

Giving is a standard that comes with the life of Christ living within us... it is much better to give than to receive....

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Bro. Deacon Blues....

Me thinks you protest too much... I'll include you in my list of pastors I know who probably sacrifice everything they have in order to further the work of the Lord. I really see your heart in your posts, that you truly care, and love the work of the Lord, and it is a ministry of love for you. And I believe that you are giving as unto the Lord, and not because you have to.

But you are refusing to see the other side of the coin that is being discussed here. Just because YOU don't do these things, doesn't mean it isn't being done. Be honest with yourself.... how many preachers/pastors do you know that live way above the means of the people in their church? There is no problem in scripture with a minister receiving honor where honor is due, and being helped by the people of the church, however Paul makes it very clear that the ministry is there to support the needs of the church, and the people, and if money begins to come in that goes beyond supporting those needs, that money needs to go outside the church walls to help the widows, the fatherless, the orphans, the poor.... those who have nothing.

Can you say that of your church? What is your church doing to support those with the "extra" that comes in after the bills are paid?

This is the question we all need to ask even of ourselves...what are we ourselves doing with the extra that God has blessed us? Have we helped someone today with that money, or have we spent that money on something new for ourselves?

I am not afraid to look at my own life seriously, and question ... what am I doing with the extra, with what God has blessed me with? Have I helped anyone in need today? Have I done anything that costs me something... to help someone in need?

I won't brag on the things I have done, but it is a question I ask myself each day, and our family gives to those around us, to families who don't know us anonymously, to the Salvation Army, and to those in our lives who minister to us... we give to our parents who are elderly and in need of extra $$ because they are now feeble and unable to work.... I view this as truly the giving spirit that the Lord has asked of us.

Giving is a standard that comes with the life of Christ living within us... it is much better to give than to receive....

I think the preachers who abuse their position and church money are the exception, not the rule. Out of the local preachers (Pentecostal) that I know I would say only one out of about twelve lived large with expensive vehicles and a was known for a lavish lifestyle. In the end, it was to his undoing and he no longer pastors. That church I have heard is making adjustments to the way money is handled and the next pastor wont have the same opportunity to abuse the privilege. The rest of the men I know live in middle class neighborhoods, their wives work, they golf at a golf course that offers a Monday special to preachers---$20 for 18 holes and a cart.

The high rollers get all of the attention. The blue collar preachers are often overlooked. I know many of these men do a lot of the church maintenance, landscaping, yard work---they work hard for the church.

These prosperity guys on TV and these country club preachers don't represent the vast majority of the men and women who are doing what they do for the right reasons.

[Nitehawk013]

Malachi 3 has been explained a hundred times on this forum alone.

First, thing to understadning it...it is an OT word to the Levites. This is no longer the OT and the Levitical priesthood no longer exists. There is NO way to "rob God" now because even if you did try to apply the tithe aspect of the verse to us, we aren't Levites. There is NO WAY to apply this verse to the church using proper hermeneutics. Any decent student of systematic theology could tell you that.

And again, arguing form your experience is subjective, not objective. YOU have experienced it to be that way. That doesn't make it so. I could argue the opposite. I think tithing is a terrible doctrine, yet my wife an I give to our church, we give in the special offerings. we give in the yearly renovation offerings, we give to those in need when we know they are in need, we give to family. Experience is NOT always a good measure of the merit of a doctrine.

[Aquila]

I think the overall issue is that "tithing" is taught as a "Heaven or Hell" issue. A great book (with plenty of references) titled, Pagan Christianity?, illustrates the history of tithing well. Christians didn't tithe. They shared their lives, all of their belongings, and heartily supported the ministry. It wasn't until around the mid to late 700's that the tithe was revived as a land tax instituted by the Catholic Church. After the Protestant Reformation Protestant churches began demanding the tithe.

Salvation comes by grace... not works of the law (tithing in this instance). It is by grace that we are called to the Gospel through prevenient grace, it is by grace that we receive an inner and outer calling of the Spirit, it is by grace that we are afforded an opportunity to believe and repent of sin, it is by grace that we are justified, sanctified through the name as applied in baptism, it is by grace that we are regenerated through the baptism of the Holy Ghost. It is by grace that we grow in sanctification into the perfection of Christlikeness. Grace. Not deeds of the law or traditions of men.

So, what are we to do??? I call it "grace giving". We are to give all possible to the advancement of the Kingdom of God, meeting needs where they arise and supporting our ministry heartily as unto the LORD.

One can "vow" a 10% tithe (and be bound to it by God)... but this is done through free will as one is led... not cohersion.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think the overall issue is that "tithing" is taught as a "Heaven or Hell" issue. A great book (with plenty of references) titled, Pagan Christianity?, illustrates the history of tithing well. Christians didn't tithe. They shared their lives, all of their belongings, and heartily supported the ministry. It wasn't until around the mid to late 700's that the tithe was revived as a land tax instituted by the Catholic Church. After the Protestant Reformation Protestant churches began demanding the tithe.

Salvation comes by grace... not works of the law (tithing in this instance). It is by grace that we are called to the Gospel through prevenient grace, it is by grace that we receive an inner and outer calling of the Spirit, it is by grace that we are afforded an opportunity to believe and repent of sin, it is by grace that we are justified, sanctified through the name as applied in baptism, it is by grace that we are regenerated through the baptism of the Holy Ghost. It is by grace that we grow in sanctification into the perfection of Christlikeness. Grace. Not deeds of the law or traditions of men.

So, what are we to do??? I call it "grace giving". We are to give all possible to the advancement of the Kingdom of God, meeting needs where they arise and supporting our ministry heartily as unto the LORD.

One can "vow" a 10% tithe (and be bound to it by God)... but this is done through free will as one is led... not cohersion.

We need a LIKE button! This is awesome....

And... I think everyone should read Pagan Christianity... it explains so many things that don't make sense today in the church world as a whole.

[deacon blues]

The church I pastor had a $1million+ debt when we arrived. In twelve years we've whittled almost 50% off. Our mortgage eats up about 1/3 of our annual budget. Salaries and employee benefits take another 1/3 (we have two full time and three part time employees) and the other 1/3 goes to utilities, missions, maintenance, equipment, supplies, insurance, etc. We are receiving a Christmas offering to help a couple of families in our church who wont be able to provide much for their kids for Cmas, we already supported Operation Christmas Child and gathered 146 boxes, we are joining with a large AG church this next Sunday to help feed, clothe and give presents to 6,000 poor folks here in our city. I want to do more for the poor but our debt prevents us from doing all that we would like. Our first priority is to the household of faith within our church. We also try to help the poor as they come to us asking for help. We maintain a food pantry and distribute those items on an "as needed" basis. My heartbeat and vision is to do even more. I am presenting to our church in 2013 a local mission that ministers to homeless men and those who are in transition out of prison. They have launched a new ministry to women who are pregnant in jail. If they qualify to come to their facility they are allowed to have their babies there rather than in prison. If they have the babies in prison their child becomes a ward of the state. If they have their baby at this ministry they are allowed to keep the child. Currently they have a dozen women in the program. I think our people will embrace this mission fully with dollars and volunteerism.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

The church I pastor had a $1million+ debt when we arrived. In twelve years we've whittled almost 50% off. Our mortgage eats up about 1/3 of our annual budget. Salaries and employee benefits take another 1/3 (we have two full time and three part time employees) and the other 1/3 goes to utilities, missions, maintenance, equipment, supplies, insurance, etc. We are receiving a Christmas offering to help a couple of families in our church who wont be able to provide much for their kids for Cmas, we already supported Operation Christmas Child and gathered 146 boxes, we are joining with a large AG church this next Sunday to help feed, clothe and give presents to 6,000 poor folks here in our city. I want to do more for the poor but our debt prevents us from doing all that we would like. Our first priority is to the household of faith within our church. We also try to help the poor as they come to us asking for help. We maintain a food pantry and distribute those items on an "as needed" basis. My heartbeat and vision is to do even more. I am presenting to our church in 2013 a local mission that ministers to homeless men and those who are in transition out of prison. They have launched a new ministry to women who are pregnant in jail. If they qualify to come to their facility they are allowed to have their babies there rather than in prison. If they have the babies in prison their child becomes a ward of the state. If they have their baby at this ministry they are allowed to keep the child. Currently they have a dozen women in the program. I think our people will embrace this mission fully with dollars and volunteerism.

This is wonderful DB! I would say this lines up with James 1:27.

Praise God for the heart that you have for those less fortunate than yourself. May Christ continue to richly bless your congregation in all they do!

[Aquila]

Tithing (giving a 10th of one's income) is a Catholic doctrine from the Middle Ages. The biblical tithe was connected to the land of Israel (herds and crops). It was agrarian in nature. To teach that one must tithe a tenth of their income or go to Hell does violence to the Gospel and is essentially extortion.