A thought on tithing

[Aquila]

I think the overall issue is that "tithing" is taught as a "Heaven or Hell" issue. A great book (with plenty of references) titled, Pagan Christianity?, illustrates the history of tithing well. Christians didn't tithe. They shared their lives, all of their belongings, and heartily supported the ministry. It wasn't until around the mid to late 700's that the tithe was revived as a land tax instituted by the Catholic Church. After the Protestant Reformation Protestant churches began demanding the tithe.

Salvation comes by grace... not works of the law (tithing in this instance). It is by grace that we are called to the Gospel through prevenient grace, it is by grace that we receive an inner and outer calling of the Spirit, it is by grace that we are afforded an opportunity to believe and repent of sin, it is by grace that we are justified, sanctified through the name as applied in baptism, it is by grace that we are regenerated through the baptism of the Holy Ghost. It is by grace that we grow in sanctification into the perfection of Christlikeness. Grace. Not deeds of the law or traditions of men.

So, what are we to do??? I call it "grace giving". We are to give all possible to the advancement of the Kingdom of God, meeting needs where they arise and supporting our ministry heartily as unto the LORD.

One can "vow" a 10% tithe (and be bound to it by God)... but this is done through free will as one is led... not cohersion.

[deacon blues]

The church I pastor had a $1million+ debt when we arrived. In twelve years we've whittled almost 50% off. Our mortgage eats up about 1/3 of our annual budget. Salaries and employee benefits take another 1/3 (we have two full time and three part time employees) and the other 1/3 goes to utilities, missions, maintenance, equipment, supplies, insurance, etc. We are receiving a Christmas offering to help a couple of families in our church who wont be able to provide much for their kids for Cmas, we already supported Operation Christmas Child and gathered 146 boxes, we are joining with a large AG church this next Sunday to help feed, clothe and give presents to 6,000 poor folks here in our city. I want to do more for the poor but our debt prevents us from doing all that we would like. Our first priority is to the household of faith within our church. We also try to help the poor as they come to us asking for help. We maintain a food pantry and distribute those items on an "as needed" basis. My heartbeat and vision is to do even more. I am presenting to our church in 2013 a local mission that ministers to homeless men and those who are in transition out of prison. They have launched a new ministry to women who are pregnant in jail. If they qualify to come to their facility they are allowed to have their babies there rather than in prison. If they have the babies in prison their child becomes a ward of the state. If they have their baby at this ministry they are allowed to keep the child. Currently they have a dozen women in the program. I think our people will embrace this mission fully with dollars and volunteerism.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

The church I pastor had a $1million+ debt when we arrived. In twelve years we've whittled almost 50% off. Our mortgage eats up about 1/3 of our annual budget. Salaries and employee benefits take another 1/3 (we have two full time and three part time employees) and the other 1/3 goes to utilities, missions, maintenance, equipment, supplies, insurance, etc. We are receiving a Christmas offering to help a couple of families in our church who wont be able to provide much for their kids for Cmas, we already supported Operation Christmas Child and gathered 146 boxes, we are joining with a large AG church this next Sunday to help feed, clothe and give presents to 6,000 poor folks here in our city. I want to do more for the poor but our debt prevents us from doing all that we would like. Our first priority is to the household of faith within our church. We also try to help the poor as they come to us asking for help. We maintain a food pantry and distribute those items on an "as needed" basis. My heartbeat and vision is to do even more. I am presenting to our church in 2013 a local mission that ministers to homeless men and those who are in transition out of prison. They have launched a new ministry to women who are pregnant in jail. If they qualify to come to their facility they are allowed to have their babies there rather than in prison. If they have the babies in prison their child becomes a ward of the state. If they have their baby at this ministry they are allowed to keep the child. Currently they have a dozen women in the program. I think our people will embrace this mission fully with dollars and volunteerism.

This is wonderful DB! I would say this lines up with James 1:27.

Praise God for the heart that you have for those less fortunate than yourself. May Christ continue to richly bless your congregation in all they do!

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think the overall issue is that "tithing" is taught as a "Heaven or Hell" issue. A great book (with plenty of references) titled, Pagan Christianity?, illustrates the history of tithing well. Christians didn't tithe. They shared their lives, all of their belongings, and heartily supported the ministry. It wasn't until around the mid to late 700's that the tithe was revived as a land tax instituted by the Catholic Church. After the Protestant Reformation Protestant churches began demanding the tithe.

Salvation comes by grace... not works of the law (tithing in this instance). It is by grace that we are called to the Gospel through prevenient grace, it is by grace that we receive an inner and outer calling of the Spirit, it is by grace that we are afforded an opportunity to believe and repent of sin, it is by grace that we are justified, sanctified through the name as applied in baptism, it is by grace that we are regenerated through the baptism of the Holy Ghost. It is by grace that we grow in sanctification into the perfection of Christlikeness. Grace. Not deeds of the law or traditions of men.

So, what are we to do??? I call it "grace giving". We are to give all possible to the advancement of the Kingdom of God, meeting needs where they arise and supporting our ministry heartily as unto the LORD.

One can "vow" a 10% tithe (and be bound to it by God)... but this is done through free will as one is led... not cohersion.

We need a LIKE button! This is awesome....

And... I think everyone should read Pagan Christianity... it explains so many things that don't make sense today in the church world as a whole.

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

hello Dave.

Thanks for your discussion.

However, scripture twisting is a fine art many preachers use to convince people that they should practice the levitical law of tithing.

No doubt it was not your intention to inject an ad hominem into your statement above.
And perhaps you didn't yet have the opportunity to follow the link I included to my post where I said I was NOT arguing for a Levitical tithe?

Even though I do not agree with you, you do make some fine points in your discussion...points I've heard for 35 years, but you give no clear scriptures that 'commands' tithing in the New Testament church. Corinthians 9 is not a command for tithing.

Certainly not, except for that word diatasso (also discussed in the same post) which was more often than not translated as "command"- a command given to the church to support the ministry IN LIKE MANNER as the priests who waited upon the altar. And what was that system which supported them? The tithe.

So, yes, other than those clear statements from Paul on how the ministry was to be supported, he simply wasn't forthcoming at all!

But even if the Bible used the word tithe in these passages...you would get produce and animals. Many preachers would not accept that.

You would if one was arguing for a continuation of the Levitical tithing system. But since neither Paul nor myself are arguing that....

I am well aware that Jesus did not practice the Melchizedek priesthood while he walked this earth. He never commanded tithing either. And you will not read where He or his disciples gave a tithe while he ministered.

What we're dealing with is something that Paul wrote many years later which applies to the church. The Apostle Peter viewed Paul's writings to be on the same level as other Scripture (2Pet 3:16), and I do, too. So, if Paul said it, then I hold it to be authoritative.

I feel pretty sure that the disciples took goods and lived off the giving of people. The bible does not say they got paid in silver or gold. Peter said he had none. Jesus lived what people gave to him also. People willingly shared what they had back then. The attitude of giving was with a cheerful heart...not out of necessity.

I highly encourage everyone to obey the commands of our Lord with a cheerful heart, and diatasso in 1Cor 9:14 is most definitely a command.

Problem is, most preachers today would not live like Jesus or the Apostles or accept anything other than silver and gold, or as in our case right now, the legal tender of federal reserve notes. I've heard it preach that if you don't have money for the rent...tithe anyway. That is not even scriptural. I Peter 5:2 is the epitome of a preacher who will preach without a monetary reward. (Somehow I just believe that God would take good care of these type of preachers)

I cannot speak for most preachers, nor am I in a place to judge their hearts. I prefer to leave that up to the Righteous Judge, Jesus Christ the Lord.

The rest of what I was going to post ... well many of you who preach tithes would not accept the words I would have written.

You couldn't take it.

Yeah....see... there's that ad hominem thing again. When one employs a logical fallacy, it only serves to weaken their argument, not strengthen it. Care to try again?

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

The staunchest supporters of the tithing doctrine are *SURPRISE* those who make a living off those they can scare/manipulate/convince to give 10% to them.

I'm an Asst. Pastor of my church who is a staunch supporter of the NT tithe and I don't get a dime of the tithe money. In fact, I own my own business and tithe on the increase, plus my own salary. I practice what I preach!

That may not be telling to some, but it is to me. That doesn't mean they are evil or just in it for the money, but as the saying goes...follow the money. If I made my living off others giving, I would want to find a way to get them to give all the time as well. Henc e, "you'll be cursed or go to hell if you don't give your tithes to the Lord(read:Pastor of the church)".

All of this is fallacious reasoning, my friend. I preach the NT tithe because it's BIBLE, not because I benefit from it.

[Aquila]

Tithing (giving a 10th of one's income) is a Catholic doctrine from the Middle Ages. The biblical tithe was connected to the land of Israel (herds and crops). It was agrarian in nature. To teach that one must tithe a tenth of their income or go to Hell does violence to the Gospel and is essentially extortion.

[AreYouReady?]

Yes, Aquila, that is quite true. But how does one impart that truth to those who think tithing is a NT command?

I guess that they think it is biblical to extort from people... ...

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by DaveC519

No doubt it was not your intention to inject an ad hominem into your statement above.
And perhaps you didn't yet have the opportunity to follow the link I included to my post where I said I was NOT arguing for a Levitical tithe?

Certainly not, except for that word diatasso (also discussed in the same post) which was more often than not translated as "command"- a command given to the church to support the ministry IN LIKE MANNER as the priests who waited upon the altar. And what was that system which supported them? The tithe.

So, yes, other than those clear statements from Paul on how the ministry was to be supported, he simply wasn't forthcoming at all!

You would if one was arguing for a continuation of the Levitical tithing system. But since neither Paul nor myself are arguing that....

What we're dealing with is something that Paul wrote many years later which applies to the church. The Apostle Peter viewed Paul's writings to be on the same level as other Scripture (2Pet 3:16), and I do, too. So, if Paul said it, then I hold it to be authoritative.

I highly encourage everyone to obey the commands of our Lord with a cheerful heart, and diatasso in 1Cor 9:14 is most definitely a command.

I cannot speak for most preachers, nor am I in a place to judge their hearts. I prefer to leave that up to the Righteous Judge, Jesus Christ the Lord.


Yeah....see... there's that ad hominem thing again. When one employs a logical fallacy, it only serves to weaken their argument, not strengthen it. Care to try again?

You would know about ad hominems...

practicing it so often makes you an expert.

Like Kept By The Word said in another post, we are all ministers of the word. We are all to be sharing with each other.

There wasn't a problem until the protestants patterned themselves after the Catholic Church by separating themselves into a different class from the rest of the brothers and sisters and calling themselves...Clergy.

We are all supposed to be sowing and reaping in the spiritual and carnal things. We are all supposed to be laboring for the Lord, praying for one another, visiting the sick, uplifting the poor with our excess.

[Scott Hutchinson]

This explains it pretty plainly.
http://inyourbible.podcastpeople.com/posts/42687