Do OPs have a grace problem?

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I think it's strange how Seekerman has vanished from this thread.

Nothing strange about it, I gave my view and that was that. Generally speaking, oneness pentecostal three stepper salvation theology isn't a grace-based theology, it's a works-based theology. For example, three stepper oneness pentecostal salvation theology requires another man, other than Jesus Christ, to perform righteous works on your behalf before one is saved. Unless that man performs the work, no salvation. That's not a grace-based theology.

One stepper oneness pentecostals are much closer to a grace-based theology than three steppers.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Nothing strange about it, I gave my view and that was that. Generally speaking, oneness pentecostal three stepper salvation theology isn't a grace-based theology, it's a works-based theology. For example, three stepper oneness pentecostal salvation theology requires another man, other than Jesus Christ, to perform righteous works on your behalf before one is saved. Unless that man performs the work, no salvation. That's not a grace-based theology.

One stepper oneness pentecostals are much closer to a grace-based theology than three steppers.

this is beyond laughable. Also goes to prove my point which I made before. It's not they don't teach "GRACE" but they don't teach YOUR VIEW of "GRACE." Which goes to what is "faith" and how a person defines "works" in relationship to initial salvation and unto discipleship. It is not YOUR "grace based theology." You can whine all you want about not conforming to some false doctrine and misuse of the word grace all you want. Your points are hollow.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

this is beyond laughable. Also goes to prove my point which I made before. It's not they don't teach "GRACE" but they don't teach YOUR VIEW of "GRACE." Which goes to what is "faith" and how a person defines "works" in relationship to initial salvation and unto discipleship. It is not YOUR "grace based theology." You can whine all you want about not conforming to some false doctrine and misuse of the word grace all you want. Your points are hollow.

I suggest you do whatever you think you need to do to be accepted by God. If it's having another man perform a work on your behalf in baptism, then by all means do it. If you believe that you have to work your way into heaven by a multiplicity of good deeds, then work your way into heaven.

But that's not biblical grace. And you'll always be a few works short.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by seekerman

I suggest you do whatever you think you need to do to be accepted by God. If it's having another man perform a work on your behalf in baptism, then by all means do it. If you believe that you have to work your way into heaven by a multiplicity of good deeds, then work your way into heaven.

But that's not biblical grace. And you'll always be a few works short.

Thanks again for the strawman. Do you believe in OSAS?

Also was ABraham short a few works to receive the promise that was given him?

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

this is beyond laughable. Also goes to prove my point which I made before. It's not they don't teach "GRACE" but they don't teach YOUR VIEW of "GRACE." Which goes to what is "faith" and how a person defines "works" in relationship to initial salvation and unto discipleship. It is not YOUR "grace based theology." You can whine all you want about not conforming to some false doctrine and misuse of the word grace all you want. Your points are hollow.

Grace - unmerited favor or a manifestation of favor, especially by a superior.
Unmerited - Not merited or deserved
Favor - An attitude of approval or liking. Or, Feel or show approval. Or even, support, grace - kindness.

Works - Activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.

Based on these definitions from Webster's online dictionary, I think it's pretty clear to deterime what Grace is & what works are. The moment there is a list of 'things' one has to do to make it to heaven, i.e. wear skirts, not have a TV, not curse, not cut hair, not wear shorts, etc, it is abundantly clear that has crossed out of the GRACE spectrum and is now residing in the WORKS world.

Grace, as you have described is the "purpose or result" of the works that have been accomplised. That isn't Grace. Grace isn't getting a pay check for working a 40 hour work week. Grace is getting paid when you haven't even started the job! Grace isn't getting what you deserve for your actions. Grace is getting what you DO NOT deserve regardless of ones actions. Grace is bigger than works & exists outside of works altogether.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Jack Shephard

Grace - unmerited favor or a manifestation of favor, especially by a superior.
Unmerited - Not merited or deserved
Favor - An attitude of approval or liking. Or, Feel or show approval. Or even, support, grace - kindness.

Works - Activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.

Based on these definitions from Webster's online dictionary, I think it's pretty clear to deterime what Grace is & what works are. The moment there is a list of 'things' one has to do to make it to heaven, i.e. wear skirts, not have a TV, not curse, not cut hair, not wear shorts, etc, it is abundantly clear that has crossed out of the GRACE spectrum and is now residing in the WORKS world.

just by you using Websters you have already failed. Thanks!

Grace, as you have described is the "purpose or result" of the works that have been accomplised. That isn't Grace. Grace isn't getting a pay check for working a 40 hour work week. Grace is getting paid when you haven't even started the job! Grace isn't getting what you deserve for your actions. Grace is getting what you DO NOT deserve regardless of ones actions. Grace is bigger than works & exists outside of works altogether.

no... you don't deserve grace REACTIONLESS! God only gives grace to those who TURN and TRUST in the context of what his message is. You get grace BECAUSE OF YOUR RESPONSE. You cannot receive the provision of grace unless you respond properly to the message. You don't just simply receive grace.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Nothing strange about it, I gave my view and that was that. Generally speaking, oneness pentecostal three stepper salvation theology isn't a grace-based theology, it's a works-based theology. For example, three stepper oneness pentecostal salvation theology requires another man, other than Jesus Christ, to perform righteous works on your behalf before one is saved. Unless that man performs the work, no salvation. That's not a grace-based theology.

One stepper oneness pentecostals are much closer to a grace-based theology than three steppers.

"He who believes and is baptized shall be saved...."

Take it up with Jesus. He obviously did not consider it to be "salvation by works" or not "grace based" or he would not have said it. However, you still are guilty of totally misrepresenting the sermon I linked, and that is a fact.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Take it up with Jesus. He obviously did not consider it to be "salvation by works" or not "grace based" or he would not have said it. However, you still are guilty of totally misrepresenting the sermon I linked, and that is a fact.

I see you're still miffed because I didn't view the sermon you linked as a grace-based sermon. That's because it wasn't. It was just another typical three-stepper sermon which is a works-based salvation theology of works, works and more works.

If you don't think that requiring some other man to perform a work on your behalf isn't a work based salvation theology then you're sadly mistaken. What would be a work if that's not a work? It's definitely not grace.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by seekerman

I see you're still miffed because I didn't view the sermon you linked as a grace-based sermon. That's because it wasn't. It was just another typical three-stepper sermon which is a works-based salvation theology of works, works and more works.

If you don't think that requiring some other man to perform a work on your behalf isn't a work based salvation theology then you're sadly mistaken. What would be a work if that's not a work? It's definitely not grace.

Thankfully, anyone who wants to listen to the message can do so and see how twisted, pre-planned, and biased your interpretation of it was. Teaching people to rest in their faith and not try to strive to earn God's favor certainly is NOT a "works" based salvation.

Furthermore, I'd like to know what you would have said to Jesus if you had been standing there when he spoke the words that are found in Mark 16:16. Burying the old man with Christ is ANYTHING but an attmpt to earn anything from God. By your definition then, repentance itself is "works based salvation".

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Nothing strange about it, I gave my view and that was that. Generally speaking, oneness pentecostal three stepper salvation theology isn't a grace-based theology, it's a works-based theology. For example, three stepper oneness pentecostal salvation theology requires another man, other than Jesus Christ, to perform righteous works on your behalf before one is saved. Unless that man performs the work, no salvation. That's not a grace-based theology.

One stepper oneness pentecostals are much closer to a grace-based theology than three steppers.

I guess Luther was confused as to what Grace meant...or you are