Original Sin/Ancestral Sin

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Adino we get a NEW body in the resurrection we will be just like Him. 1Jn.3:2

Yes that child's nature will be enemy against God when he begans to make choices it will choose wrong. Adino we are talking about babies.

Yes, we get a new body, but what does this have to do with the eradication of the sin nature? Do you believe the sin nature, at enmity with God, will be ours for eternity? Must it be eradicated?

I know we're talking about babies. We're also talking about an innate nature, the very existence of, which stands in direct antagonism against God. Can even the nature itself exist in eternity with God? If it cannot exist in eternity with God, then it 1) needs to be completely eradicated in eternity and 2) it needs to be justified while on earth for fellowship as well.

Now I have no problem with the idea that those you call 'innocents'*(infants, children under the age of accountability, those mentally challenged) can be considered to be under the merciful grace of our God through an imputation of what Christ did for all mankind when they die, but I do have a problem with the idea that man is not depraved and in need of a Savior from birth. If Christ would never have come to save mankind, I do not believe heaven would have been a place populated only with aborted newborns and the mentally challenged. All mankind would have been lost.

The question becomes one of imputation. Is it possible that God imputes the work of Christ to the 'innocent' upon death? Whether this 'innocent' has the transgression of Adam imputed to his account or whether he possesses only the sinful nature at enmity against God, is it possible that God reckons them under the blood of Christ and saves them by his Spirit if they should die prior to 'losing the innocence'?

Man can only come to the Father by Christ. Christ is the only way, the only door. Therefore, even the aborted child must somehow come to the Father through Christ. If the evil nature in man has not yet come to fruition it still needs to be justified and/or eradicated. This problem is resolved with the doctrine of imputation.

Is man born saved? No. Is man born spiritually alive? No. Is the 'innocent' child who possesses an innate nature at enmity against God damned if he dies? No. He is not condemned if, when he dies, he is justified by God on the basis of the righteous work of Christ on the Cross. He is not damned if God imputes the work of the Cross.

The question then becomes: Is it possible for a child to receive the imputation of righteousness and be justified upon death even though he is yet to have a saving faith in Christ?

I would answer that God is merciful and just. Christ died for the child and anything which would have separated him from an eternity with God has been dealt with on the Cross. It is of my opinion that when an 'innocent' enters into eternity he is wrapped in the finished work of Christ via imputation and welcomed into the presence of the Almighty with open arms.

While Scripture emphatically says that faith is counted for righteousness and that Christ's righteousness is to all and upon all that believe, it does not say that same righteousness is not to all and upon all those depraved souls who die 'innocent.'

*I use the term 'innocent' loosely because if, indeed, that transgression of Adam is reckoned to all at birth or if we simply consider the innate sinful nature as something which absolutely must be removed in order to enjoy an eternal fellowship with God, then there is no one truly 'innocent.'

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

Yes, we get a new body, but what does this have to do with the eradication of the sin nature? Do you believe the sin nature, at enmity with God, will be ours for eternity? Must it be eradicated?

I know we're talking about babies. We're also talking about an innate nature, the very existence of, which stands in direct antagonism against God. Can even the nature itself exist in eternity with God? If it cannot exist in eternity with God, then it 1) needs to be completely eradicated in eternity and 2) it needs to be justified while on earth for fellowship as well.

Now I have no problem with the idea that those you call 'innocents'*(infants, children under the age of accountability, those mentally challenged) can be considered to be under the merciful grace of our God through an imputation of what Christ did for all mankind when they die, but I do have a problem with the idea that man is not depraved and in need of a Savior from birth. If Christ would never have come to save mankind, I do not believe heaven would have been a place populated only with aborted newborns and the mentally challenged. All mankind would have been lost.

The question becomes one of imputation. Is it possible that God imputes the work of Christ to the 'innocent' upon death? Whether this 'innocent' has the transgression of Adam imputed to his account or whether he possesses only the sinful nature at enmity against God, is it possible that God reckons them under the blood of Christ and saves them by his Spirit if they should die prior to 'losing the innocence'?

Man can only come to the Father by Christ. Christ is the only way, the only door. Therefore, even the aborted child must somehow come to the Father through Christ. If the evil nature in man has not yet come to fruition it still needs to be justified and/or eradicated. This problem is resolved with the doctrine of imputation.

Is man born saved? No. Is man born spiritually alive? No. Is the 'innocent' child who possesses an innate nature at enmity against God damned if he dies? No. He is not condemned if, when he dies, he is justified by God on the basis of the righteous work of Christ on the Cross. He is not damned if God imputes the work of the Cross.

The question then becomes: Is it possible for a child to receive the imputation of righteousness and be justified upon death even though he is yet to have a saving faith in Christ?

I would answer that God is merciful and just. Christ died for the child and anything which would have separated him from an eternity with God has been dealt with on the Cross. It is of my opinion that when an 'innocent' enters into eternity he is wrapped in the finished work of Christ via imputation and welcomed into the presence of the Almighty with open arms.

While Scripture emphatically says that faith is counted for righteousness and that Christ's righteousness is to all and upon all that believe, it does not say that same righteousness is not to all and upon all those depraved souls who die 'innocent.'

*I use the term 'innocent' loosely because if, indeed, that transgression of Adam is reckoned to all at birth or if we simply consider the innate sinful nature as something which absolutely must be removed in order to enjoy an eternal fellowship with God, then there is no one truly 'innocent.'

Adino this argument is baseless there is nothing in scripture that remotely says we are resurrected with the same nature.
Infants will be judged at the White Throne and God the Righteous Judge will do right.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Adino this argument is baseless there is nothing in scripture that remotely says we are resurrected with the same nature.
Infants will be judged at the White Throne and God the Righteous Judge will do right.

Never said we were, Bro. My point is precisely that I believe we will not have the sin nature in the resurrection. It must be eradicated. If it must be eradicated, then we must be justfied of it while on earth. Do you agree?

[bkstokes]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I personally think that "oracle" and Dr. Vaughan are one and the same.

[oracle]

Originally Posted by bkstokes

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I personally think that "oracle" and Dr. Vaughan are one and the same.

I am not Dr. Vaughan. I do not even know who that is. Bad guess.

[Adino]

Steve, if the sin nature must be eradicated in adults why not in infants as well?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

Steve, if the sin nature must be eradicated in adults why not in infants as well?

Adults have SINNED thus they are guilty of Sin those sins must be remitted in water in Jesus Name.
Infants have NOT sinned that is the difference.

[Adino]

Are you telling me infants will retain their sin nature throughout eternity? If not, why not?

Whether it has brought external manifestation of sinful deeds or not is not the issue. The issue is that it exists spiritually. Will infants retain their sin nature throughout eternity? If not, why not?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

Are you telling me infants will retain their sin nature throughout eternity? If not, why not?

Whether it has brought external manifestation of sinful deeds or not is not the issue. The issue is that it exists spiritually. Will infants retain their sin nature throughout eternity? If not, why not?

I never said any such thing. They get a new body in the resurrection WITHOUT a sin nature.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I never said any such thing. They get a new body in the resurrection WITHOUT a sin nature.

Ok. You agree that the sin nature will not be in eternity. Why do you feel it will not be in our new body? Why do you think God will not allow it to exist in eternity?

Will you agree because it is at enmity against God, wholly against the nature of God and thus cannot co-exist in eternity without it 1) being fully removed or 2) somehow justified?